The Only College Fencing Recruiting Thread You Need to Read

Athletic Recruits
441

First off, congratulations on the recruitment, and secondly – bravo to all your efforts and thank you for detailing you and your son’s process. Great tips about creating an email account and taking SAT subject test in sophomore year.

Looks like your son was a top recruit of his graduating year (top 5 in his weapon), yet he didn’t get a verbal commitment until the summer between his junior and senior year. Is this late in the game for a top recruit? From my understanding, many of those top fencers have verbal commitments around JOs, sometimes earlier.

Again, congratulations. I hope you are riding the wave of sweet content this week!

442

Hoping your post is the first of many, Chelsea, from so many hard-fought processes from so many gifted parents and fencers who have contributed to this thread. Hoping to hear from a lot more of you — You know who you are!! Please share!

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@chelsea465, thanks for the great info! I had a question regarding the subject tests and SAT scores - how important were those scores to the recruitment process? Did your son’s school want to see certain results or did they just want to see a certain AI?

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@Rollhigher: I’ll try to answer your question from our experience. Generally speaking, the coaches (Ivy and non) we talked to didn’t really speak in terms of AI…more about the scores/GPA. Of course, these are related. But at least in our experience, the coaches spoke more about needing test scores to be above a certain level vs. “If you can hit an AI of XXX…”. Would be curious to hear from other parents/fencers on this topic…

445

@Rollhigher - We visited a broad spectrum of schools including Ivies, elite private schools, and big-box schools. None mentioned AI, however, I know that at some Ivies, mandatory tutoring/study sessions are required for admitted students below a certain AI. They all emphasized GPA and standardized test scores, but not all schools were specific. Ivies were 32+ on ACT. Subject SAT scores were not considered significant at Ivies unless 750+. GPA and rigorous course load were paramount. Depending on the level of the recruit, all of this is ‘negotiable’.

446

And some further requested clarification regarding the discussion of scores…I think it’s safe to assume that the average SAT score at an Ivy is 1500+ with subject test scores of over 700. Are they looking for the same from prospective fencers? I’m sure they’d love to see it, and that’s what my son is targeting, but how much more flexibility is there vs. a non-athlete?

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One thing to keep in mind is, AFAIK, that what Ivy coaches are really trying to manage around is a squad average. So, there is some flexibility depending a a number of factors. For one, the AI of the other fencers on the squad. If the squad has a very high average AI, that coach might have more flexibility in bringing in a desirable recruit on the lower end (sub 1400) of the applicant pool. That said, the last thing anyone wants is to recruit a fencer who will be overwhelmed by the level of rigor at a given school. That’s no good for the fencer, the coach, or the school.

448

To answer your question more directly, Of course, for those targeting Ivies, being a fencer with academic credentials at the high end of the general (athletes and non-athletes) applicant pool is great…but IMO, what you are trying to accomplish by being an attractive enough of a recruit is more flexibility for you in terms of admissions.

Because there seem to be no shortage of 1500+/4.0+ GPA applicants to these schools. So you are trying to give yourself some truly differentiating factor so that you don’t even end up competing in the general applicant pool. How much flexibility there is for recruits is impossible to say…there are so many factors that it can change from year to year even within the same program, and not just from program to program.

449

While @SevenDad is correct, I need to point out/reiterate for Ivy League schools anyway, admissions has the final say. They will not admit a student that they believe cannot handle the academics no matter how much the coach wants this recruit. Fortunately, whether with the help of the AI or just based on experience, most Ivy League coaches have a sense of knowing what will not pass muster with admissions.

450

What @skieurope writes is very true and very important. It does no one any good to squeeze a recruit through the admission process only to have him/her desperately struggle with academics. Ivies in particular will have their cut-offs, but there is definitely flexibility, at some more than others. The average GPA to which Seven Dad refers is a factor. However, taking a fencer below the average is like taking out a mortgage. It puts pressure on contemporary or future recruits to pay back the difference. Coaches are therefore loathe to compromise too much on this factor as there will almost certainly be a super-recruit down the line who needs all the flexibility the school can muster. Most schools will provide “academic reads” at least for upper level recruits. This will tell all involved in the process where the fencer stands on the spectrum of prospective admission to a particular school. Particularly if you are a top recruit, avail yourself of these reads as early as reasonably possible. They will help you to focus realistically early-on and best commit to top choices.

451

I’ll add to the conversation that mandatory study hours and tutoring are not just an Ivy thing, and not just a thing for students at low end of acceptability at a given school.

At my Ds large Div1 school, there are mandatory study hall hours for ALL freshman fencers, and the use of provided tutors is highly recommended – and not just for remedial help. The way the coach puts it: If tutoring is the difference between an A- and an A, why not get the A? The fencers also have required weekly check-ins with a dedicated academic advisor for the fencing team, and that advisor is required to get mid-semester professor feedback for all current classes to help avoid any academic progress surprises.

So to pose a general question to the group - are these services/perks common to all Div1 schools and perhaps even some Div3 schools, or is more of a school-by-school decision on how they support the academic success of their student-athletes?

452

@Rollhigher - I was always told 700’s were the goal. After DS’s positive pre-read and after he committed, the coach sat down with the two of us and explained the AI. I’m sure it was an effort for the team average, not just for DS’s application but I didn’t have a problem with that. 'wish I had taken notes during the explanation. It came down to something like this… his first subject test was in the 700’s, so if he took a second subject test that was in the 700’s, the average would be used to offset half the regular SAT score. As DS’s regular SAT was high but unbalanced, it was beneficial to take the second Subject Test, but only if the subject test scores were high-ish. No point in taking them unless there is a certain amount of confidence.

Admissions did want to know his Sr. yr schedule in advance. We guesstimated, throwing in the appropriate AP classes. And even though we had no control over city public school scheduling, when you start asking for transcripts to be sent to Ivies, the HS counselor tends to get a bit more obliging.

@fencingmom - No reason to rush, check all options, strike when ready- typical epee.

453

Previously mentioned in Post #437, the recruit spreadsheet for the graduating year of 2018 has received its first update.

Link is at: https://www.fencing.net/forums/threads/unverifiable-rumors-and-dubious-gossip-about-2018-collegiate-incoming-fencers.142053/.

454

@stencils, I think most D1 schools with big sports programs have a staff of “academic liasons” who work for the athletic department. They assist with advising, scheduling, dealing with conflicts (bowl game during exams), tutors, etc. I know someone who had this job and I got the impression that he had counterparts at every school in their conference. He also said that there were some teams that were highly desirable (i.e., crew) because they tended to draw kids who were well prepared for college and disciplined students while others were really a ton of work. Just guessing fencing is one they fight over!

455

PART 1 OF 2:
Inspired by chelsea465’s recent post, I thought I’d post some details of my daughter’s recruiting adventure. For privacy reasons, I won’t put everything on the public side of the forum, but I am open to sharing more via PM if people have specific questions.

I think her story is a good example of how a second-tier prospect can target a smart set of schools and come out with some very appealing options at the end. Her road was long (started back in Sophomore year, more on this later) and not without bumps and breakdowns (after she did not get any offers at 2017 SN meetings, I was seriously doubting our overall approach to things). But her story has a very happy ending: She ended up with a choice of offers from two great D1 schools and one Ivy, signed an NLI with one of the D1 programs, and recently received her official ED acceptance letter.

As a second-tier prospect, my daughter was not an “early commit”. TBH, I think those occurrences are reserved for both the very top prospects and those who just feel some perfect mutual connection with a school/coach/program early on. We are friendly with two kids in the class ahead of my daughter who were at or near the top of their year’s recruiting depth chart — and both of them advocated taking OVs before committing.

My daughter was invited on and took Official Visits to the two D1 schools remaining on her list. The Ivy was an interesting situation…it was a front runner early on, then fell off after the coaches declined to take a meeting at SLC. Their message to my daughter included a sentence to the effect of “we might reach out later”…but we didn’t put much stock in that. Well, lo and behold, while my D was on one of her OVs in the Fall of her Senior year, the Ivy coach reached out to her and offered her a slot. But we had all sort of moved by then.

The final decision was a very difficult one for my daughter. Both finalists felt like good fits but were different in many ways. Her experience on the OVs was great and either school could have offered an excellent education/fencing team experience. Until she told my wife and I her final decision, I truly thought she was going to choose the school she didn’t.

A few thoughts that I think aren’t redundant to what’s already been posted here before…some of which may be totally obvious. Humor me.

  • For starters, keep in mind that the advice and information contained in this thread — while both plentiful and helpful — are just guidelines. This thread is arguably the best forum-based resource on college fencing available on the internet — but it is NOT a hard-and-fast blueprint for recruiting success. What works for some may not work for others. For parents, you know your kid and your family’s priorities and tolerances better than anyone…so use the thread to make informed choices based on what you know is right for your kid. As has been stated before, there are many ways of defining success and many paths to get there.  
  • Second, it is extremely important to have a realistic appraisal of your/your child’s strengths and weaknesses. Especially relative to that of the other recruits in his/her graduating class. Note that a given recruiting class COULD (and usually does) include fencers who are a year older chronologically but who, for one reason or another, are in the same grade as your kid. In my daughter’s weapon, there were quite a number of strong fencers who fit this description, but thankfully an almost equal number who were the same birth year, but a grade behind.

In the end, you are only competing for slots against the kids in your graduation year…but knowing how far down the depth chart you are is helpful to choosing what schools to visit, what coaches to nurture relationships with, and ultimately what programs to try and get recruited by. If your kid is a D-rated fencer with so-so grades and scores, aiming for one of the Ivy League national title contenders like Columbia or Princeton is probably not realistic.

I bring this up, because I think most parents (myself included) tend to be over-optimistic when targeting schools. I probably was too, in the beginning. It’s just sort of natural to think the most of our kids, and to want the best for them. But I think it’s important to make a distinction between “best” and “best for your kid”. What’s better? A school/fencing program where your kid is truly a good fit vs. one where he or she will be struggling both academically and on the strips?

I think using SAT or ACT scores isn’t a bad tool for thinking about academic fit, btw. The Ivies are going to want 700+ scores across the board. If hitting those numbers is going to be a struggle for your kid…if they are going to have to spend their entire summer tutoring for a single test…maybe an Ivy isn’t the best fit for your kid. And you know what…that’s absolutely fine. There are plenty of other programs out there.

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PART 2 OF 2:

  • Which brings up another point that I think is critical: DO NOT THINK OF THE SPORT SOLELY AS A WAY FOR YOUR KID TO GET INTO A SELECTIVE COLLEGE.

All caps intentional. Because I’ve come across so many parents over the years that seem to think of all this as a means to an end. And yes, it can be that. Getting into a great college can be a goal. But, IMO, it should not be the only goal or even the ultimate goal. Because what if Jimmy doesn’t get into College X? Will you have considered all the time, effort, and money you spent on fencing to be a waste? I certainly hope not. It doesn’t help that there are any number of blog posts/articles about how fencing is some automatic red carpet to Harvard.

  • Within reason, the earlier you can start, the better. The time to begin looking into colleges with fencing programs is NOT the spring of the fencer’s Junior year of HS. I suggest starting research in the fall of Sophomore year. Consider if you want to go Div1/Ivy or Div3 (where even within the division, programs can vary greatly) or apply to a range of schools. If you can afford to, try to make some unofficial visits over Spring Break of sophomore year…just to give your fencer a feel for various campuses/coaches. Do they prefer a school in a city, one in a suburb, or one in the middle of nowhere? Do they want to go to a school with 4000 students or 40,000?

Starting early also applies to standardized testing. I recommend that kids take a practice test of both the ACT and SAT cold in the late Spring/early Summer of their Sophomore year…either on their own (but under test day conditions) or at a test prep center (they generally offer diagnostic tests for free as a marketing tool). This will help you choose what test to focus on — my daughter found the SAT just suited her better. Starting diagnostic testing at that time allows you to use the Summer before Junior year to prep if needed.

Then the fencer can take a “real” test in the Fall of Junior year, allowing for a second sitting before trying to set up unofficial visits in the Spring of Junior year. This way, the prospect has 2.5 years of HS transcript, test scores, and fencing results as talking points to try and get unofficial meetings set with coaches.

I know that superdomestique feels that before the summer between Junior/Senior years a kid’s application profile is all preliminary, and that admissions departments can’t make a judgement on a prospect until they have a transcript complete through Junior year in addition to scores — and he’s right. But having this stuff ready in advance means less stressing about it later.

  • Regarding how many schools to have on your list: In the course our various unofficial visits, one coach gave the advice of targeting 7 schools leading into the critical Summer Nationals between Junior and Senior years, meeting with 3 programs at SN, and aiming to get 1 (or more) offers of admissions support. In hindsight, this was very good advice, and for the most part how things transpired for my daughter.
  • If your kid is not in the first tier of recruits for his/her graduation year (meaning, not top 6-8 or so in weapon/gender), understand that you may have to wait until the kids higher up the recruiting depth chart commit to schools before coaches can tell your fencer where they stand. I think this is what happened with the Ivy that offered my daughter a recruiting slot mid-Fall…I’m assuming one of the recruits higher up on the depth chart (or possibly in another weapon type) ended up committing to another school, so that Ivy had an open slot.

Well, I’m sure you’re as tired of reading as I am of writing. But know that it can happen. Also know that nothing’s over until it’s over. Best of luck to the HS class of 2019 and their parents — feel free to shoot me a PM if you have specific questions.

457

It’s been a while since there’s been chatter on this discussion group (oh, right, holidays!), but I just wanted to thank @SevenDad and @chelea465 for the recent detailed postings about their journeys. Congratulations! And Happy New Year to all …

458

As we prep for a chilly and potentially snowy Virginia Beach NAC, I was wondering about conversations between college coaches and parents of current high school Juniors…do coaches want to engage in these types of conversations at NACs? I know colleges can’t talk to athletes off-campus until after SN’s, but what about discussions with parents?

459

2022 is almost totally set. Coaches are well into the 2023 recruiting class. While coaches will not talk to potential recruits, and certainly not in the venue, they will certainly speak with parents. Take advantage of whomever will speak with you.

460

@Rollhigher: In our experience, even with some of the Div1 coaches who eventually ended up offering my daughter a recruiting slot, the coaches made it clear that they could not or did not want to talk about recruiting issues with me on the floor of a NAC when she was a still a Junior. Note that a relatively recent rules change allows Div3 coaches to talk to Juniors (and their parents) at an off-campus venue (like a NAC) during the student’s Junior year…with overnight/official visits permitted starting Jan 1 of student’s Junior year.

From the InformedAthlete.com website (no affiliation):
“Effective for current high school sophomores, Division III coaches will be permitted to have off-campus contact with high school prospects after they have completed their sophomore year.”

While the article by former Northwestern coach Laurie Schiller is a few years old, the “basic recruiting rules” outlined in it are worth reviewing before you leave for Virginia Beach:
http://nebula.wsimg.com/59e229d43f0b44433c1c3551b665aa11?AccessKeyId=DA97608E8549B3B0DC92&disposition=0&alloworigin=1