Yes @BrooklynRye I agree, and i stand corrected. But as in Sevendad’s example of Princeton vs UPenn, my point was more for the choices among the Ivy Div 1 schools where the choices would be a lot more limited and lot fewer chairs to select from.
@downallunder: FWIW, I picked those schools mostly because of the large spread between posted rosters and the fact that they are more apples to apples than say trying to compare an Ivy with an non-Ivy. But I really like how BrooklynRye broke things down in his post #779…and couldn’t agree more with his final line.
Btw, Ivies are not insulated from the unexpected. Without getting into specifics, Ivy League fencing programs have experienced the following over the past several season: (1) unexpected withdrawal of fencers on current team; (2) injury to current fencer; (3) change of choice by top recruit; (4) need to restock gender/weapon necessitating large allocation of LLs to that gender/weapon, and (5) need to recruit less competitive fencer for purposes of boosting team AI. Note that the latter can be done generally or because a highly desirable recruit necessitates compensating for a sub par AI. Keep your powder dry all and be ready to dash for that empty chair!
@downallunder Fewer chairs, but also fewer athletes. Elite fencers with academic viability are a limited commodity.
@fencingmom Very true. This past recruitment season, a few of the elite fencers I know in the top 10 of their grade on the junior list were turned down by a few Ivy coaches because of their academic stats, but fortunately for them it was still good enough for them to get recruited at another Ivy.
Last year at the October NAC, the first inklings of where Class of 2022 recruits might be headed started making the rounds. Curious if any Class of 2023 cats will be let out of the proverbial bag in Milwaukee since it’s LL season…
I know where many of the top WF fencers (actually about 9) committed to, but since it is not official yet, I don’t think I should make it public. My D heard it from her college teammates who heard it from the fencers directly as they went to same clubs or are friends. This year’s WF fencers are extremely strong, so some top schools recruited 2 fencers for WF.
As my fellow hosts all know, I am a great believer that the very top recruits generally know, or can know, very early in the process. I concur with Miniblue’s experience in that I know many, many fencers, across both genders and all weapons, who have already ‘committed’ to the school of their choice.
Usually most of the academically viable top athletes have committed to their top choice school by early to mid Spring of their junior year. By the time summer national comes along, many of the Ivy coaches have already spent their LL slots on their top choice athletes.
wow, mid Spring of the junior year would commit. This is very early.
For recruits or parents reviewing this thread, it’s important to recognize that there are significant differences in the recruiting experience for tippy-top recruits (national team members and others at the top of junior points list) looking for LLs from Ivies or commitments from other powerhouse fencing programs like Notre Dame and Ohio State - and everyone else.
As mentioned above, these elite recruits may verbally commit very early, followed up by LLs and formal commitment in the fall.
Less selective top 10 fencing schools are also vying for the remaining top fencers – those who either don’t have the academics for the Ivy/ultra-selective schools, or are looking for merit or athletic scholarships to help fund college. These students will start committing in the fall, but may not commit until spring (driving coaches crazy I’m sure!).
It’s after this initial game of musical chairs that the bottom-half of the junior points list get more attention from coaches from well into fall and winter for once coaches know who is still available and know where their remaining roster gaps exist. Much of this activity will be for teams outside the Ivies and top-5 fencing powerhouses, but are still strong, well supported Div 1 teams.
Outside the fencing top-10 and for division 3 schools, coaches may be recruiting C and under fencers right up until decision day to fill their rosters – emailing, calling, and texting recruits that have been accepted to multiple schools and are still deciding where to attend.
Thank you for that - Stencils. Do you (or other posters) think this would be true for most college sports? I find most of the postings are for NESCAC and Ivy type athlete/students. But there are a whole lot of kids who would like to pursue their sport in college who are not looking at that level of recruiting.
@stencils: Agree 100% with your post #790. The board can sometimes skew toward the tippy-top recruits/schools, which I think may scare off those who are not in (or interested in) those categories. Thanks for reminding us (once again) that the college fencing scene is far broader than a handful of former/current national team members and NCAA championship-contending schools — and that while some dominos fall into place early on, there’s quite a number left to fall from now through the Spring.
Back from the 2018 Oct NAC. Had a great time catching up with some parents I’ve known since the Y12 days. For me, one of the coolest things was seeing many of the kids my daughter was fencing against five or six years ago now sporting their college colors. My daughter, too. To have watched the kids progress through high school and now go on to college…just very cool. And to have college teammates to cheer for you/cheer for is great, too. FWIW, I did not hear of any additional 2023 commits in the weapon I’m most familiar with. I think that will have to wait until Nov/Dec NACs.
One parent and I had a great discussion about just how hard it can be to be a D1 athlete at some of the more rigorous colleges. TBH, I think that’s something that many prospects and parents tend to overlook when considering schools. Maybe a less rigorous school or a less demanding fencing program would be more appropriate for a given prospect.
@SevenDad For most of the kids who end of at rigorous Div 1 schools, nothing is different from what they have been doing in high school. In high school, many of these kids trained 4 to 5 nights every week, coming home late at night to start their homework or study for exams. They took the most rigorous courses, in addition to being active in club activities at school. They had to make up for material for all the days missed while traveling to tournaments, average of 3 to 5 days a month. So, despite it being very difficult to be a Div 1 athlete, fortunately, they’re doing what they have been doing all along. 
@SevenDad and @stencils I concur, the field is broad after the “tippy top recruits” – so many amazing programs happy to have the student athlete who might be a little farther down the domino line, to continue Seven’s metaphor.
To your point @SevenDad, many of the top recruits have been managing fencing and prep school academics for so long, that the transition to a D1 rigorous college is just more of the same – those kids have already mastered the balancing act and will be familiar with the continuing demands. I think the biggest issue for those kids is whether or not to keep pushing to make Junior/Senior teams and fence internationally as career, internships, and an ever narrowing pool of fencing talent emerge at the Senior fencing level. The pressure after that is self generated, and the choices more, well, real world if you will.
I think prospects need to keep in mind, not so much the demands, but the inevitable expansion of their world and the various opportunities which will undoubtedly branch from their original path.
As part of my discussion with that fellow fencing parent, our wide-ranging talk touched on two things (among others): 1. Managing free time — while you are in HS, your time from 8-3 is basically fully scheduled. Whereas in college, you might only have one class in a given day or have classes that end a few hours before practice. So there is a learning curve on how to manage that free time in a way that most kids would not have had to in HS.; and 2. The myriad social/non-sport/non-academic stuff that was not really part of high school life in any significant way.
@345winter While I’m not familiar with other sports, I’d guess that some variation on this holds true. It’s hard to compare fencing to something like Women’s softball – because there are just SO many recruits and schools as compared to women’s fencing which only has a little over 50 NCAA options. Something like women’s water polo with only 60 schools might be similar though.
@starwars1, I understand what you’re saying. I was always amazed how grades and stats stayed so high over the last 2 years, but I’m not so sure freshman year at an ivy could be considered a ‘continuation’. A lot of the fencers do not come from prep schools. The amount of work to stay on par can increase significantly. It’s not a complaint, just an adjustment, and it takes a little time to get used to. I would agree with @SevenDad that time management can be an issue. Classes are concentrated towards the middle of the week because, until March, they will be traveling almost every weekend, so there’s not actually that much free time when you throw in morning practices and evening fencing lessons. DS has lost a significant amount of weight because there is ‘no time to eat’.
On the other hand, there are so many benefits. 'Instant friend group with a wide variety of backgrounds. I also love that the men’s and women’s teams practice and hang out together. And interestingly, the kids I know were rather shocked at the level of academic stress culture…even the ones that came from prep schools. I guess because they are used to competition and comfortable with not ALWAYS being the best, they seem to insulate themselves from the stress tornado rather well.
I think even when kids are used to a really rigorous course load in HS, the volume and pace in college is likely to be more intense. DS has had no problem with the level of the work (straight As in all classes so far, including a couple of 300-level courses), but the sheer volume of it (reading, writing, labs) and how fast the exams and due dates come at you, has been much more of an adjustment, and this is where time management really becomes an issue.
Also I think the difference between club fencing (even at a top club) and collegiate fencing is bigger than some kids may expect — not so much in terms of the level of competition or coaching, but in terms of the number of hours and level of commitment required. If a HS student wants to take a day (or 2 or 3) off from club fencing due to an upcoming exam or big research project or just not feeling well, it’s no problem. In college you don’t get to choose when to turn up depending on how you feel that day or what else is going on in your life — you’re supposed to be there, every day, for every practice, no matter how you feel or what you have due the next day. There may also be a lot of additional activities that the team (or even all athletes) are required to attend, certain hours of community service required of team members, mandatory study table hours, etc., on top of all the training/conditioning/lessons/competitions. Suddenly your fencing belongs to someone else, not you, and I think that can be a bit of an adjustment for kids who aren’t used to that feeling.
When we were making the recruitment rounds, at one particularly competitive school we expressed concern over balancing academics with fencing. The coach responded, almost totally deadpan, “But aren’t you already doing that now?” While technically accurate, I think the reality is a bit less straightforward. Yes, a sizable portion of fencers are successfully burning the candle on both ends, producing stellar academic results to accompany their fencing accomplishments. However, particularly at the Ivy and elite college level, high school work pales in comparison. I can’t speak for elite private schools that may challenge the rigor of an Ivy or top college, but at the public school level, for the most part, it is just not the same thing. Yes, the high-functioning student-fencer has the tools and the mindset, but the workload is much harder.
As for the balance itself, particularly the allocation of time, I don’t think it is the same for all fencers. I think NCAA fencers fall into roughly three categories. There are those who are gung-ho NCAA fencing, with little or no interest in pursuing fencing outside of college. Some are enthusiastic about NCAA fencing, but remain focused on national and international competitions, several with an eye toward the Olympics. Finally, there are those who will honor a recruiting commitment to compete on the NCAA circuit, but who are more seriously focused on outside fencing.
The burden of school team practices largely falls on the first category, and they want to be there. I think the burden is increasingly less moving toward fencers who continue to pursue national and international competition. In large part this is due to the circumstance that most of these fencers continue to train with their personal coach, or a personal coach, all through college. But, in any case, in our experience, NCAA practice is nowhere near as demanding nor as strictly requisite as the outside training commitment. I get why this may be the case for others and at certain schools, but it is not always the case, particularly at NCAA programs with a high percentage of fencers training with outside coaches and primarily devoted to national/international competition.