@SevenDad - Obviously, as you already know, NCAA fencing is dominated by 5-touch bouts. There are events, e.g., the recent PSU Garrett Invitational, as well as the semis and finals at NCAA National Championships, that feature late round 15-touch DE bouts, but this affects only the elite-elite NCAA fencers and in a very limited context. From my experience, 5-touch bouts are key. This is the meat and potatoes of NCAA fencing. These are also important because there are fencers who head to college with little or no distinction in national, let alone international, competition, yet thrive, shine even, in NCAA competition.
I agree with @Sherpa that a video/highlight reel is not very useful in the majority of circumstances.
However, with respect to @sevendad’s comment, I wouild imagine a video of an unheralded fencer “going the distance” with a more well known fencer (ie national team member), might catch a coach’s eye. Published fencing results make it hard to decipher “heart” in the same way a 14-15 rockyesque loss might illustrate.
However, as @brooklynrye noted, given the OP’s self professed high fencing/academic stats, his fencer is probably already known to the college coaches so video highlights probably won’t be necessary/useful.
On a separate topic, this came out today:
http://nationalfencingclubrankings.com/characteristics-freshmen-fencers-ncaa-division-excluding-ivy-league-schools-2016-2017/
Very informative website. Perhaps this is why our new thread has generated so few questions in our first 5 months (over 6K views!)?
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Thank you all for such very informative replies.
However, regarding the video, I do realize that since my son may already be on some coaches radar and many may have already seen him fence at one of the NACs, would there be any harm in putting up a link to the youtube highlight playlist on the first introductory email anyway? Also. do you think it would hurt or help if the video includes bouts defeating their current school’s athletes?
Honestly @fencerdad, at the risk of shooting from the hip, I would not be ‘cute’ and show cuts of your son defeating the athletes of a particular college program. Demonstrating that your son may be a superior fencer to someone currently on a particular college roster is in direct conflict with the team mantra of these teams. Your son’s individual success competing in national (and perhaps international) events is certainly part of what will attract recruiting interest, but this will quickly give way to your son’s ability to become part of a team and to enthusiastically support the group mentality so essential to NCAA success. If indeed your son is on the radar screen of major programs (and from everything you have posted, he most certainly should be), creating a youtube link of bout highlights is really gilding the lily. Honestly, if they are already interested in the real thing (presumably having watched your son in actual competition), what are you trying to accomplish by posting pictures?
In a post you made late last year to the old fencing thread (http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18988815/#Comment_18988815), you asked for advice for a daughter (sophomore at the time) who had impressive fencing credentials.
It is impressive that you also have a son that is an accomplished fencer who is beginning the college fencing recruiting process.
Are they twins?
Would there be any harm? Probably not
Would I recommend it? No
Back from the Jan NAC with the following observation (among others): The college coaches in attendance were definitely keeping an eye out for promising fencers in the high school class of 2018 and beyond — perhaps more so than at previous NACs this season. Maybe because they have their Class of 2017 slates sorted out at this point?
@SevenDad (or anyone else) Complete Noob here, so I apologize if these are silly questions:
Do college coaches make their presence known at these competitions?
Do they mind fencers approaching to introduce themselves?
Do coaches from some of the smaller programs come to these events? (smaller = Lawrence, Tufts, Lafayette, etc.)
My daughter will be fencing at the February Junior Olympics, and chatting with a coach or two from the colleges she’s looking at seems like it might be worthwhile.
Thank you.
In reading through this awesome thread, literally everything you wanted to know and more, for the HYP+ hopeful, not only must one be a great fencer, but almost academically fit to get admitted based on academic merits alone.
My question: if the student-athlete currently a junior, fairly high on the junior point list (top 20), with only a few other high school juniors within a narrow margin in the list, how significant are the tournaments to follow from this point onward? Since SATs and ACTs are yet to be taken and the junior grade GPA not firmly established yet, is it “OK” not to get stellar fencing results (realistically only the JO left and maybe one World Cup), since now the focus has to be more on the academics and board tests?
Regarding @saharafrog question about meeting coaches at tournaments, correct me if I’m wrong, it is my understanding that prior to the Summer National at the end of the junior year, a college coach will not be able to discuss recruitment issues with any student or parents outside their campus, other than phone or email correspondence initiated by the fencer/ or parent. I have heard of several parents who were abruptly turned away (citing NCAA rules) at a tournament when they tried to greet them, even though that fencer was ultimately recruited at their school.
@quiksword If I understand what you wrote correctly, my daughter would be OK approaching a college coach since she is currently a senior in high school? Or would she be turned away based upon the time of year the tournament is?
I’m a relative noob, but I’ll try to answer:
- Do college coaches make their presence known at these competitions? Mostly, yes. Most coaches I see are wearing some item of logo'd clothing. Though not all, so it helps to know a coach by face (based on a photo from the team site). I have heard of some coaches trying to go a little below the radar — especially at JOs, where they know people are looking for them.
- Do they mind fencers approaching to introduce themselves? Hmm, I think that really depends on a lot of factors. They definitely get approached by people...and sometimes when they are trying to coach their own athletes/scout/otherwise do what they came to the NAC to do. I've done certainly introduced myself to coaches at NACs/JOs/SNs before, with varying degrees of warmth felt in the reception.
- Do coaches from some of the smaller programs come to these events? (smaller = Lawrence, Tufts, Lafayette, etc.) Again, it depends. Coaches from the bigger/big-name programs are generally at every USA Fencing national event (except for "youth" NAC)...and I have seen coaches from smaller programs at some.
- My daughter will be fencing at the February Junior Olympics, and chatting with a coach or two from the colleges she's looking at seems like it might be worthwhile. If she is a senior, as you mention in post #89, there should be no issue with her approaching and even talking about the program with any coaches you see. Since my daughter is not a Senior, a few Div 1 coaches have said to us "We can exchange pleasantries but we can't talk about recruiting issues."...even ones that we've previously met at an on campus unofficial visit.
Note that is my understanding that Div 3 (don’t know about Div 2) coaches can talk to any athlete at a NAC/JOs when they are Juniors. Juniors can even do an Official Visit at Div 3 schools after January 1 of their Junior year of HS.
@quiksword: Your question: if the student-athlete currently a junior, fairly high on the junior point list (top 20), with only a few other high school juniors within a narrow margin in the list, how significant are the tournaments to follow from this point onward? Since SATs and ACTs are yet to be taken and the junior grade GPA not firmly established yet, is it “OK” not to get stellar fencing results (realistically only the JO left and maybe one World Cup), since now the focus has to be more on the academics and board tests?
Keeping in mind that my kid is also a HS junior (so I have no idea how her college story ends), I would say that the the rest of the tournaments this season DO matter…especially if the kid is on an upward trajectory. Even considering just domestic tournaments…there’s JOs, the April NAC (if fencer has Div 1 points), and then the “July Challenge” (or whatever they are calling it now). I’d say that even if a kid is outside the top 32 on the NRPS list but manages to podium or T16 at all of these events, that’s notable right?
Regarding grades and testing…some high schools (I’m thinking private schools here) are on trimester system, so there will be 2 marking periods of junior grades available at or around JOs. Additionally some kids will have done some preliminary SAT/ACT sittings already so they will have close to a “complete” application profile for coaches/schools to consider. That said, academics should always be #1 priority (so I’ve been told by MANY).
Will be curious to hear what sherpa, superdomestique, and BrooklynRye have to say in response to the most recent salvo of questions/observations.
@saharafrog, if your daughter is a senior, then her college applications have already all gone out. I think the best plan would be for your daughter to email the coach directly, letting them know that she has applied to their schools, and ask to meet at JO’s. That way it’s not so awkward for her or the coaches in Kansas City. I’m not sure how much they can do for admissions at this point, but if she wants to continue fencing in college, meeting the coach would be a very important factor.
@quiksword, I totally agree. My kid (HS Jr.) is certainly putting a bit more concentration on the academics at this point. He’s on firm footing fencing-wise, so the priority is trying to get into the best school possible, not fighting the points list to make top 3. If your athlete has been to world cups, the coaches probably know who he/she is anyway.
Thanks for the responses.
@chelsea465 Yes, apps are already out the door. My daughter is thinking of attempting to walk on to a fencing team, depending on where she gets accepted. Our conversations with coaches would be more about the opportunity to walk on, not looking to be recruited or helped in admissions.
I’ll suggest she email the coaches.
Thanks again.
In light of chelsea465’s comment #92, I should amend my post above to read “the rest of the tournaments this season COULD matter”.
While kids in the top 10 (or whatever cut-off you want to use) at this point in the season are certainly on solid ground from a fencing POV, I recall that superdomestique’s kid peaked late in the season of his HS Junior year — and that his performance in those events made a big difference in terms of coaches returning their calls/emails, paying attention to him.
@saharafrog, my older son from few years back, after he submitted his application, reached out to several coaches, and was ultimately given admission support to get him admitted into his first choice school, albeit Div3. So you can still discuss with the coaches of your daughter’s choice schools and perhaps ask if they will be able to give support, or even outright recruit :)>-
As with many thing, it depends…
For one thing, coaches are most comfortable recruiting fencers they’ve watched over a long period and have come to understand that they’ve got the attributes they’re looking for. If a fencer has been on the points lists for the last several years, it’s likely that they’ve been watched and some general impressions have been formed. In those cases, any one or two particular tournaments are relatively meaningless; a bad tournament or event or will likely be overlooked. Even skipping a NAC or JOs might be understandable, especially if it were for academic reasons.
On the other hand, for an athlete with fewer historical results but a couple recent strong finishes, late junior year NACs might be crucial, where any particular coach might label them a “one hit wonder” with a bad performance, or put them on their recruiting list if the do well.
Another thing to keep in mind is that coaches hope to be spending four years with their recruits and would happily pass on a great fencer who they expect will be a pain in their a$$ for four years. With that in mind, demonstrating class and maturity on the strip and in the venue will, in some cases, matter more than actual results.
@quiksword
You ask an interesting question and a lot depends on your fencer’s personal circumstances.
In my opinion, fencers who are recruited early to academically elite programs almost always have the complete “package”: both excellent academics and solid fencing results.
With top 20 on the JNPL and WC experience, it is possible that your child’s fencing accomplishments are sufficient to be recruited at any of the top college fencing programs.
However, to be recruited at an academically-elite college program, your child’s academic record will need to be similarly impressive. If you are unsure of this, taking some time off from fencing to fortify this aspect of your child’s college application preparation may be worthwhile.
At the Ivys, the Academic Index (AI) thresholds for recruitment are pretty clear cut so your academic goals are definable.
However, there are risks to foregoing the remaining NACs and SNs as your fencer may be leaving the door open to an improving fencer who may not yet be on anyone’s radar. Momentum, positive trajectory and more recent results may make it more crowded at the top of the JNPL over the next six months. As @sevendad mentioned, my son was one of these late bloomers and he was heavily recruited by coaches at SN who had never heard of him a year before. It is worth noting that his academic credentials were pretty good (AI 225+) and he was ultimately recruited over other HS risking seniors who were higher than him (for longer) on the JNPL. In our experience, at the academically-elite programs, the academics matter as much as the fencing results.
You mentioned that there are not many other HS juniors near the top of the JNPL. Are you confident your fencer will still be in the top 32 on the JNPL when this year’s SN is over?
While some may disagree, I think competing at SN just before senior year is a must. Junior year grades will have just been published and a lot of decisions can be made in the days/weeks based on meetings held after that competition.
You are smart to be strategizing about this as the right answer is different for everyone. I often wonder, is it easier for the excellent fencer to dig deep late in the game to improve his/her academics, or is it easier for the excellent student to dig deep to improve his/her fencing results?
Well put @superdomestique as usual. It’s all relative. For example, I wasn’t advocating missing any NACs, only that “no, you can’t go to practice the night before PSATs…You need sleep.” DS takes both academics and fencing very seriously, but every once in awhile I have to hit breaks for him. Jr. year is also a particularly stressful time in fencing as many can, and do, fence in Cadet, Junior. and Div1 or 2. Add the school team, a World Cup or two, classes, standardized tests and required community service, and I find the schedule a liiiiittle overwhelming. If in @quiksword 's case, there are a few “non-stellar” results, I’m sure it is easily explained and not the end of the world. Academics are just as important.
@quiksword- That’s amazing and great information for everyone. My first child that went off to college was not an athlete, so I wasn’t sure how late the coaches can get a word in with the admissions office.
Thanks again for condensing the threads @SevenDad!
Again, it depends… My son skipped SN for a once in a lifetime academic opportunity and it didn’t hurt his recruiting prospects, but he did so knowing that his options were secure.
I wouldn’t use any form of the word “easy” to describe the task @superdomestique describes,at least if “late in the game” means junior year. The “easier” thing would be to lower one’s academic or athletic expectations. Those who refuse to lower their expectations, you have my respect.