I’ve lately seen a lot of similar posts by students worried and obsessed about how they can survive with a single B+ or how much they need atone for some B and A- grades, often for the quixotic goal of “top schools.” I have worked in secondary and university education for a while, and have noticed two consistent downsides for students who worry about and try to fiddle with points to get higher grades.
When you grade grub, you poison your academic reputation. Most teachers are fulfilled by your interest and growth in the subject. There is a world of difference between the engaged student asking a teacher "how can I better understand the material/do a better job," and the silent back-row kid who asks how he can "get an A", or who argues about a few points to jump to a higher mark. The latter student is universally disappointing to teachers. These students cannot expect glowing recs, and a student who does this consistently will get a reputation as a cynical grind, which can cost a lot school-wide.
Grade obsession is a "tell" that the student may very well not end up accepted to the schools that interest him or her. Adcoms look for a curious, creative, interesting student, not just a GPA. A kid who frets about a B+ is directing their emotional and intellectual energy inward. This kind of student may in fact end up with good grades, but recs may be lukewarm, and the personal statements may easily reflect this mercenary mindset; not a good thing.
Ideally, grades are an assessment, not a judgement. I can’t ask my doctor to change my blood pressure reading just because I don’t like it. Unfair teachers? Yes, there are some of them, and they exist in college too. Unfair bosses as well later in life. I suppose what is driving a lot of this thinking is that a student pre-decides his or her college and then desperately tries to become the kind of student that school will admit. I hope that teachers and parents can head off this kind of thinking when possible in favor of finding the right fit school for the person that the student actually is.
tl;dr - Grade grubbing hurts your rep among the teachers who will be recommending you and can be a sign that you are not on the road to becoming the kind of student that many colleges want to admit.
Agreed… but many students and parents are likely comparing the potential college (or medical/law school) admissions outcomes between these two scenarios that the student can pursue:
@ucbalumnus, the student with a 3.4 GPA and great recs will almost certainly do better in admissions than the student with a 3.6 GPA and mediocre recs.
Nothing says you can’t be charming and engaged…and still set high expectations for yourself. It’s odd how several threads have suggested high GPA is suspect.
Snarlatron did mention top schools. They get plenty of 3.9+ kids with good recs. And those 3.4. Don’t fall into romanticizing the latter. It’s rare when recs overcome B and C grades.
The people that the elites admit do have to have the numbers. Of course, 3.6 seems like a marginal applicant to the elites, and 3.4 seems like a no-hope applicant to the elites (assuming there is not a large “hook” or other highly desired-by-the-school characteristic in either case), so these students are probably looking at schools that are a step down in selectivity, where the numbers are likely more important in that they give more differentiation between applicants.
Also, not all schools ask for recommendations, and even the grade-grubber can cherry-pick recommendations (from teachers where s/he got A/A+ grades without grade-grubbing).
@lookingforward I don’t think OP means that a high GPA is suspect. And I highly doubt that grade grubbing can cause a 3.4 to jump to 3.9+. I think what OP refers to is not setting high expectations for oneself, but being more obsessed with how to nudge a grade higher rather than putting in the work to master the material.
I definitely agree that grade grubbing can have consequences when it comes time for teachers to write recommendations. It’s much easier to shower with praise a student who has come in for extra help than one who has come in to ask for a higher mark.
I am frequently asked to write recommendations for college students who want to transfer or pick up a scholarship or even get a job. I have discretion over those students I will help and those I will not. Snarlatron is absolutely correct. When a student grubs for grades, our whole relationship sours. Over the years I have learned to say, “I’m sorry, but I don’t think I’ll be able to write a favorable recommendation.”
Job and scholarship recs are especially tricky. Sometimes those people call me. They want to know if the applicant is cooperative, easy to work with, has strong character, etc. If they ask me questions about stuff that I might have glossed over in a letter, I’m not going to lie. So it’s better if I’m not part of the equation at all.
The only way to get rid of grade concern is disregarding grades.
The US is probably one of the few countries that pay too much attention to grades.
The grade requirement for college admission is sometimes illogical. Why do college expect students to perform well from 9th grade to 11th grade but forgive low performance in 12th grade and tolerate seniority? Would it be better to disregard the importance of grades from 9th to 10th grade and give more weight to the performance in 11th and especially 12th grade?
True, but recs may be needed for some high school positions and boards, for summer programs and internships, scholarships, etc. Most awards are chosen through nominations, recs, and committee decisions that weigh the overall character and citizenship of the student. Those kinds of discussions cannot be cherry picked by the student.
I don’t think grad grubbing really makes much of a difference to a GPA. The only time I’ve heard of a prof. chaning a grade was for my S and the prof. made a pure mathematical error (you would think a math teacher would double check) and when my S averaged his exam grades, his final grade was way off.
My D had an experience with a prof. who gave her a disappointing B+ (D didn’t say anything even though she was off by .01 to get the higher grade and was frustrated). As things turned out, that same prof. nominated my D for her college’s residential scholar house (a big honor as only 18 or so students/year live there) citing her “intellectual curiosity” (My D lived in the house last year and will again next year.) In addition, my D ended up research with that prof… Nobody can say that grades are not important, but there is more to life.
OB, I was referring to several threads which suggest top grades suggest too much focus on those grades. In fact, may kids aim high and earn it. Unless some flag is raised in the LoR, an adcoms can’t tell if it was earned by manipulating points or sincere interest.
Maybe that is the reason behind some lukewarm recs. Maybe.
@snarlatron you are one of my favorite contributors to CC, but from my small corner of the universe, I’m observing things different from what you’re suggesting.
In my daughter’s high school class the valedictorian talked about the neurosis required to achieve that distinction. You must be on all the time - for every single quiz and homework assignment. That’s sort of what she did. She was otherwise not really accomplished and somewhat detached from the community. She is now at Stanford
The year or so prior, the valedictorian was quoted in the local paper saying that achieving valedictorian was her # 1 goal. Her classmates off-handly called her “cheater girl” because she took short cuts. She is now at Harvard.
This year the valedictorian - who seems otherwise lackluster - was also admitted to Stanford.
Some of the true intellectuals from my D’s class were not admitted to the very top American universities. One of the kids - a true history scholar who the history faculty considered a junior colleague was rejected by H and P et al., but is now attending UVA where I’m sure he’ll go on to be a great scholar.
Another kid in her class was a conservatory level Cellist and singer and otherwise brilliant, but rejected by H & P et al. He is now at Oxford University, where he is the only non Asian in the traditional Mandarin course of study. He had self studied Mandarin while in high school.
These guys did very well in school, but were too engaged in genuine scholarship and art to obsess on every single grade - yet they were rejected by the top US universities.
"Another kid in her class was a conservatory level Cellist and singer and otherwise brilliant, but rejected by H & P et al. He is now at Oxford University, where he is the only non Asian in the traditional Mandarin course of study. He had self studied Mandarin while in high school.
These guys did very well in school, but were too engaged in genuine scholarship and art to obsess on every single grade - yet they were rejected by the top US universities."
I guess I am going to wax philosophical. Sometimes, you have to do things in life that you don’t particularly enjoy. That would go for school as well. The student who isn’t particularly interested in science, but puts forth the effort to get an A in AP Bio and ALSO follows his/her passion for ‘fill in the blank’ may be more welcome at some schools than the student who pursues his/her passion and doesn’t put forth any effort in the classes that don’t interest him/her. Can you not be engaged in genuine scholarship and also get As in the classes that don’t truly interest you? These are not mutually exclusive goals. Just because you get an A in a class that doesn’t particularly interest you doesn’t mean that you are obsessed with grades. It just means that you have to eat your vegetables before you get to eat your chocolate mousse! Yes, I would eat dinner backwards if I could.
@snarlatron - agree with and like all of your points. I wish it were true but the actions in my part of the world don’t reflect the words you (and adcoms and school administrators) speak. The Valedictorians and their court are going are admitted to the top schools. After that, it’s the URMs who got into top schools. The regular top GPA, top SAT/ACT students were rejected by even the top UC schools out here. Most of the top students are forced to leave the state or go to some backwater UC or Cal State school. It’s just sad.
I’ve got a kid who is pretty high on the intellectual side and definitely did not grade grub in high school, or show any special interest in assuring that his grades were as good as they could have been. He pursued his own interests and is definitely self-motivated. However, he now says that I should have pushed him harder in those areas that he wasn’t particularly willing to put in that extra effort (i.e… math).
In college, he has seen the light AND he is at a school where there are not a lot of requirements to fulfill. I think it is great that he now also cares about his grades while simultaneously pursuing those academic interests. It will make a difference when going forward with education that his grades are an asset instead of a hindrance.
There is a balance between being overly concerned with grades and not.
Is that the same neurosis that requires an engineer to be “on” for every bridge calculation, the physician and surgeon to be “on” for every patient and operation and the pilot to be “on” for every flight?
Fortunately, engineers, surgeons, and pilots are not generally required to carry out 50-100% of their tasks using information they only acquired last week.
^^^No. The professionals are allowed to specialize in their area of interest. The engineer, physician, surgeon and pilot are not expected to do the jobs of their entire team. The pilot doesn’t know how to run the airline booking system. The surgeon doesn’t arrange the schedules of the rest of the hospital. The engineer doesn’t survey the site before building.
Our high school system requires students to be generalists, who work independently. Most professions require extreme specialization and teamwork.
I worry when I hear parents of current high school students talking about how they are encouraging their children to go for the B. It’s hard to explain this in writing. They seem to feel the As require pointless overwork, rather than excellence. This may be very local In our public school district, it does seem that kids who overwork themselves and those who kinda coast along end up in the same colleges.
Honestly I disagree. If a teacher makes a mistake with my grade I don’t consider it “grade grubbing” to ask them to fix it, even if they have to go out of their way to do it.
Specific responses:
Who says a student can’t be both?
I obsessed over my grades, still got great recommendations, and now go to Georgetown.
Thanks for the responses; all of the above points are well-taken. I do believe that high achieving students and “grade grubbers” are two different animals. Maybe it has to do with how the student presents him or herself in the classroom. I also don’t think that anyone would consider it grade grubbing to ask a teacher to correct a grading error.