<p>Back to the idea of being challenged at Harvard versus challenged at Simmons... my friend wanted to be around a certain kind of self-conscious, understanding, interested individual that she felt couldn't be found at Harvard or other top schools. It's not as though we're all wanting to get in to Harvard. Personally, I'd rather drown in the Charles River than go to Harvard-- I'd much, much rather go to a school like Tufts or Brandeis.</p>
<p>I have constructed a quantitative method for building “Reach”, “Expected”, and “Safe” portfolio of schools and a way of defining “Out of Reach” that I think works for most students. Obviously this approach can’t address individual preferences for one type of campus over another but, for what it’s worth, here it is. I’d like your feedback. </p>
<p>The focus is students who are not recruited athletes, URM’s, legacies, or development candidates. My guess is that, at a typical selective LAC, setting aside those groups would eliminate about 40% of available openings. At a medium sized private university, my guess is that those groups capture about 33% of the openings. And at a large flagship state university, again just a guess, but I assume that those groups represent about 25% of the openings. I am assuming a Regular Decision student whose grades are in line with their test scores (easy to figure out from data available at most high schools) and whose EC’s are demanding, with some degree of leadership demonstrated, but no significant accomplishments on the national level. For example, at a most selective LAC’s this kind of candidate should consider a school out of reach if the student’s test scores are below the mid point for the school’s reported scores. At most selective mid-sized private universities this kind of candidate should view a school as out of reach if the student’s scores were below the average of the schools mid-point scores and the 25th percentile. And for a large flagship state university this candidate should view the school as out of reach if the student’s scores are below the 25th percentile for the school. The full list of ranges is listed below. One caveat, if a student is not in the top 10% of their class they should use the mid-sized private university rules for assessing State U chances. The idea is that the student places this school in each category if the student’s scores fall in the range designated for the school. Obviously a little guessing is required to identify scores for some of these ranges but simple linear interpolation should work pretty well.</p>
<p>. LAC’s Mid Size Private U Major Flagship State U</p>
<p>Out of Reach 0-50 0-32 0-25</p>
<p>Reach 51-75 33-67 25-50</p>
<p>Expected 76-87 68-81 50-75</p>
<p>Safe 88-100 82-100 75-100</p>
<p>I apologize for the formatting can't seem to get it to work.</p>
<p>If you are more than 50-75 points above the 75th percentile, the school is too easy for you. Don't apply unless there is some extraordinary reason....like it won't cost you any money AND your girlfriend/boyfriend goes there AND you can carry on an intelligent conversation with yourself.</p>
<p>What then would you suggest to do for people with 2300+ scores? According to your advice, they shouldn't apply anywhere, but to schools which are nowadays "reach schools" for anyone. :-) No "matches", not to speak of "safeties".</p>
<p>myau,</p>
<p>Obviously someone with 2300 SATs and comparable grades and ec's would have a wide range of schools to apply to. It's just that for such a candidate, (assuming they are not a URM, recruited athlete, legacy or development candidate), some schools are still "reach" schools despite those scores and grades.</p>
<p>What do you propose?
We re-name the rankings this?
Reach = It's possible =)
Match = You're probably in =|
Safety = You could do better >:|</p>
<p>I think you need to apply to a variety of different schools. In another thread some parents said their kids were denied at a school that was deemed safety and accepted at a school that was a match.</p>
<p>Lucky 777,</p>
<p>I'm not sure I get your drift? I always thought that was what those catagories meant!</p>
<p>Some people exaggerate and say that something's a reach when it's not. Those that do often say so not because of an SAT score, but because of the rest of the application (virtually no ECs, etc.). At the top schools, though, it usually is a reach, since only about 1/10 make it. And think about it: if people had no concept of "reach," we'd all be applying to HYPSM and getting rejected from them all (community college, anyone?). Personally, when I chance someone for top top top schools (1-15 or so), I don't use the terms "reach/match/safety," but instead say "you have a good chance," "you have a shot," etc. and offer my thoughts and advice to improve.</p>
<p>And it obviously doesn't discourage people, because Stanford (and schools like it) gets ~23,000 applicants each year, of which ~2500 make it. You'll notice that schools like U Chicago have the same SAT score range as Stanford, yet have a higher acceptance rate. Why? Because fewer of the "weaker" applicants apply (the pool is much more self-selective).</p>
<p>At any rate, the reach concept is NOT meant to discourage you. In fact, it's recommended that you have a few matches, a few safeties, and a few reaches if you want. It's simply meant to show you that it's not too terribly likely, but what the heck, go ahead and apply -- you might get in, and sometimes you do get in.</p>
<p>The 'reach/match/safety' is a good way of getting a nice college list together.</p>
<p>
[quote]
what is wrong w/ ppl???/ do they love to shut down ppl's hopes and trick them???
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think that it's tricking anyone. It's just assessing the chances that someone has to gain admission. We can't all be PC and say that EVERYONE can probably get into some highly selective university like Harvard. Reaches will be reaches, and people need to accept that. It's better to be realistic.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>What do you propose? We re-name the rankings this?<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I kinda like Maybe, Probably, and Sure Thing.</p>
<p>Regarding my post #4 guidelines, if someone's SAT scores (critical reading + math) are 75 points above the 75th percentile, that would put them in the top 5% or so of the freshman class (according to my calculations). To me, that means you probably should focus on better schools. I don't think it is a good idea to be in the top 5% of the freshman class. You would be selling yourself short.</p>
<p>Conversely, attending a school where your SAT (CR+math) is 75 points below the 25th percentile would put you somewhere near the bottom 5% of the class. Not a good idea. Asking for trouble.</p>
<p>So, that is why I say that schools are out of bounds when your SATs are 75 points above the 75th or 75 points below the 25th.</p>
<p>(Above is based on normal curve analysis.)</p>
<p>College admissions officers don't base their decisions on an SAT score curve, so I don't see why "Reach", "Match", and "Safety" should be determined by your SAT score either. As stated in my previous point-- by your calculations, it would be useless for somebody with a score higher than 2370 to apply to Brown (Brown would be less than a safety for them), yet I'm sure plenty of people with perfect SAT scores are rejected from Brown. How can you possibly explain this?</p>
<p>Virgil, I was thinking about SATs in terms of critical reading plus math, excluding writing. CR+math 25th and 75th percentile is readily available in US News, unlike other important admissions criteria. </p>
<p>So, Brown's CR+math 75th percentile is 1540. Nobody could possibly score 75 points higher than that. Nobody is "too good" for a place like Brown or any of the top 20 or so unis and LACs.</p>
<p>Unalove, it sounds like Simmons has some pretty great students. I can understand why a particular person would choose to go where she feels an affinity. I am talking more in generalities and realize there are exceptions.</p>
<p>Give me an example of someone with a 1700 SAT in Harvard and i'll stop the "reach" concept.</p>
<p>I mean, save the money on applications and apply to a school you have a shot in. Unless you did something EXTRAORDINARY like be a junior olympian...hahaha</p>
<p>Regarding the original question, when a school is a reach (and a good fit), then you SHOULD apply. Reaches are schools where you should apply. "Reach" shouldn't discourage you from applying.</p>
<p>On the contrary, I think most of the schools to which you apply should be reaches because of (1) probabilities (2) you should aim high.
So, if you apply to 10 schools,
5 should be reaches,
3 should be matches,
2 should be safeties.
Among the above should be a couple of financial safeties, schools you know you could afford, such as the best public schools in your state.</p>
<p>I would slightly alter collegehelp's advice and suggest applying to 2/3 safeties, 2/3 matches, and as many reaches as you have the stamina to apply to.</p>
<p>My son, who is starting college this fall, applied to 5 reaches, 2 matches and 2 safeties. (He got into one of his matches relatively early through rolling admissions, so didn't apply to the other match and safety he had been considering.) Results: he got accepted to 2 of 5 reaches, 1 of 2 matches and 2 of 2 safeties. </p>
<p>The system is not perfect; otherwise he would have gotten into both match schools. However the one that rejected him had a phenomenal increase in applications this past year. Also, he had very strong grades during his senior year, after a strong junior year and weaker freshman/sophomore years. When you put your lists together you really don't know how well you will do senior year which can affect your chances a great deal.</p>
<p>to the OP-
what do I think? I think you should do your math! :)
[quote]
and that if they have a 2190...it's not enough, they should retake for a little 10 point higher=2300..
[/quote]
</p>
<p><em>edit</em>
ahh-- snoopyiscool caught this.</p>
<p>OP-- The reality is, there are no guarantees, and it IS hard to get into many schools. No one is trying to trick anyone-- just to be realistic.</p>
<p>Another thought for the OP-
Looks like you are new to CC-- been here a week (welcome) and already posted 245 posts! You are a busy person. You mentioned that you are a URM with good grades, and this will be of assistance to you. So some schols that might be a "reach" for some may not be as much of a "reach" for others. </p>
<p>Collegehelp-
Not very one with 1500+ SATs has an interest in attending Harvard. There are plenty of excellent schools that can provide an excellent, stimulating learning environment</p>
<p>Actually, to the OP, I disagree with you. The reason that the chances section of this forum is scary (disgusting is the wrong word almost) is not because some people are discouraging hopes and dreams; it's sad to see people tearing their hair out, utterly obsessed with the minutia all through their high school career, clawing with their fingernails to get into that school that accepts 9% of their applicants.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with applying to a school just to see how things'll turn out, though. You might as well apply to your dream/reach school (who knows what could happen! :D), but you should keep you feet firmly in the reality of a good fit. You keep safeties so that you know you're going to college.</p>
<p>Maybe it looks to you like people are dashing someone else's dreams when that person asking for the chances at a particular school is like "PLEASE PLEASE WITH MY 1,000 ECs and 11 BAZILLION GPA, VALEDICTORIAN OF MY CLASS, IB DIPLOMA AND INTERNATIONAL STATUS will I get into HYPSMATYUDIPBOSKDP?!??!!!ELEVEN11?!! <em>sob</em> <em>insert other noises of desperation</em>". No, we're just being realistic.</p>
<p>Besides, Ivies are pretty much reaches for anyone.</p>
<p>Perhaps some people feel insulted when they are told a school is a "reach," interpreting that as suggesting they aren't good enough. Another way to think of these terms is as shorthand for how competitive a candidate is when compared to those typically admitted. Thus, for a top school, while a candidate may be competitive, that doesn't mean that he or she is likely to be admitted--that's why it's a "reach," even for these students.</p>
<p>Another way of putting this is that while Harvard is a reach for everybody, not everybody is competitive compared to Harvard's applicant pool.</p>