I was thinking much the same thing as @blossom . Nothing wrong with going far away just for the sake of going elsewhere–I very much wanted to do that. But really if you’re going to criticize staying near home as a “lateral move” after achieving so much academically, then it makes zero sense to get excited about tOSU as an alternative to UT.
If you have community colleges with high enough quality to make that a good preparation for those good students, that’s great.
It’s hard to come up with an example that doesn’t offend somebody, but here’s a thought experiment. Let’s say you know an African-American student who lives in Virginia, and who would like to attend a historically black college. He is considering Howard and Virginia State. This student has SATs of 2100 and is in the top 10% of his class. His family can afford either school (he’ll probably get scholarships at both), and both offer his intended major. You look up the schools on College Board, and you find that at Howard, 4 or 5 percent of students have over 700 on sections of their SATs; at Virginia State, none do–in fact, only 1% have over 600 on any section of the SAT. At Howard, most students are in the top half of their graduating high school class, and many are in the top quarter or 10%; at Virginia State, most students are in the bottom half of the class, and very few are in the top 10%. If this student came to you for advice, what would you tell him? I’d certainly tell him to go to Howard unless there was some really powerful reason for him to go to the other school. If the reason he wanted to go to Virginia State was because his dad went there, or because his friend went there, or because his girlfriend went there, or because he doesn’t like DC, I’d try to talk him out of it, because I’d think he was making too much of a sacrifice of likely academic opportunity. He still might have a good reason–perhaps he has to take care of a sick family member who lives near Virginia State. That would be a good reason, but I’d be sad that he had to make that kind of sacrifice. Is there anybody here who would give him different advice, assuming he asked for it? (I chose these examples because I know a little about them, and I can imagine a student from Virginia considering this–of course, if this were real, you might suggest some other HBCUs as well.)
Just because kids don’t go far from home for college doesn’t mean that’s what they wanted. I see kids on CC all the time who are eager to get out of their own region, but most don’t seem to be able to because their parents can’t write the kind of check it would take for that to happen. According to OP, the decision of this family was a financial one, so I don’t think it really matters how far from home she wanted to go. Apparently, the family can’t afford it.
It doesn’t matter how much you love a school, how well known it is, or what kind of advantages it offers if you can’t afford the price tag. I don’t understand why anyone would disparage a family for not being able to afford what you think they should provide for their child or why OP would be so surprised that the family is doing what they can afford. What else does she expect them to do?
Hunt- I agree with everything you have said. 100%.
But the relevant detail is that this hypothetical high potential kid came to you for advice.
In the OP’s example, no advice was sought.
To me- this is a material difference in scenario’s. I give college advice all the time to kids in real life who ask me. I don’t walk over to someone in the produce department of my local grocery store to tell them that they are making a mistake by sending their kid to Quinnipiac when the kid could have gotten a full ride to McCauley Honors college.
In fairness, it doesn’t appear that OP said anything to the kid in question, either.
To expand, if the kid in my example was an acquaintance of one of my kids, and they told me about him, I’d most likely say (to my kids), “He’d be nuts to go to Virginia State unless there’s some really compelling reason.” If they told me that they heard it was because his dad went there, I’d say that I thought the family was making a big mistake. I wouldn’t say it to them (nor would my kids), unless it was somehow my place to give advice. I don’t see that as different from what the OP was saying here.
I don’t think OP offered advice to the student in question either, just came here to discuss.
Going to college with students whose GPA and standardized test scores are lower than yours is “flirting with the dredges” of public college society? That’s incomprehensible to me. The only “flirting (with) dredges” that I know of in the vicinity of a public university are those that GE is finishing up along the Hudson. It’s a very nasty business dealing, literally, with the scum of the earth. Is that how you see other people’s children? If their stats are below your child’s they’re the dregs of the university system? That’s very sad. I shudder to think how you refer to the kids whose families can only afford the local cc or who are immediately entering the workforce after graduation because their parents can’t afford even that.
FYI, 40% of National Merit Scholars in Fall 2014 enrolled at public universities. Among those 40% most enrolled at state flagships but some enrolled at directional state universities. In Florida for example, 24 National Merit Scholars enrolled at the University of Florida and 5 enrolled at the University of South Florida.
Re: 201
Oldfort, state schools attempt to attract top students with honors programs and scholarships because attracting them will lead to a higher ranking in certain publications. Students (and/or their parents) refer to these publications when forming their application lists.
Applications = Demand
Demand = Justification to raise price
Increased Price = Increased Revenue and, keeping costs fairly steady, Increased Profit.
Increased Profit can go into any number of things to improve the university: research, infrastructure, more Adcoms to read the increasing number of apps, luring top professors from other schools to further the academic prestige, higher salaries for staff, etc.
So:
Top students = Better ranking/prestige = More apps/demand = Higher price = More income = More investment in the product and payout to stakeholders
Note that nowhere in that causal loop scenario is a resulting improvement in the quality of education. It’s all about prestige and money. Luring top profs might improve the quality of teaching a bit; I’ll grant that. And the buildings and roads might be prettier, making the school more pleasing to the eyes. But primarily it’s about the bottom line.
Now – the top students themselves, I think, can augment the academics if they are outgoing in their group discussions/assignments, if they speak up during lectures, and if they help fellow students out with tough assignments/papers (though there can be a downside to that too…).
But students of all levels can improve a school, as long as they are willing to share their perspective, share their real-world experience, and jump
in when it’s time to contribute.
Positive educational contributions are not limited to the very brightest kids.
@1or2Musicians not criticizing staying near home as a “lateral” move. I meant making an academic lateral move. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
…and I don’t think I directly compared tOSU and UT. Might have been referring to A&M many would argue TX has two flagships 
“… it’s fairly obvious she considers the girl’s choice beneath her. Which, to me, indicates she values prestige…”
There are many advantages to top schools other than prestige.
@NPRfan “Apparently her older brother is full-pay at flagship U, the family can’t afford both of them, so the girl accepted a full ride to the commuter/directional (85% acceptance rate, 50% dropout rate) even before any big decisions come in.”
Unfortunately, there are many families who prioritize a boy’s education over a girl’s.
@NPRfan “My jaw has been on the floor since finding out. I’m not a snob, it’s just a student of her caliber earned the right to attend a better match.”
I think that the better match is usually beneficial for the student too. The course expectations tend to be higher, their peers tend to work at a higher level, the challenge level of homework and projects assigned tends to grow, and the opportunities for speakers, internships and other opportunities is often better.
Having said that, choosing a major that you like and also provides good future opportunities is the most important thing. A Directional U student who is capable and hard working can go far if they choose a major where there are likely to be good future opportunities, and they make an active effort to stand out, and seek opportunities on campus. That student is likely to have a much brighter future than the Ivy League student who is actively seeking the easiest major on campus so it does not interfere too much with their partying.
“Some kids who grow up moving around the country are content to continue to do so, having no sense of emotional rootedness to any one place. Others have sought to be planted, and so seek a place where they can do just that. If the last years of high school found them in one place, that can be the one place they choose to stay.”
Whether a kid has actually moved around the country or not isn’t really relevant to the point I was making. My kids have lived in the same house since birth and have never moved, once (well, until they went to college). 3 of their 4 grandparents live in our city. That has nothing to do with the fact that we (us personally! no one else!) had a mindset that a national reputation and national student body was an important factor in a college decision, because it is a big world out there and that they should open their eyes beyond their backyard.
As it so turns out, one kid went to school in our metaphorical backyard (though that was a con, not a pro, of his decision), and both kids wound up with their first jobs nearby (one in our city, the other a few hours away). However, that wasn’t due to a parental mindset that you have to stay close to home. They were encouraged to spread their wings; it just so happened the opportunities that presented themselves were in our area. That’s VERY different from the mindset of “why would you ever leave this town, your family is here, and what would you ever find compelling about [insert other region].”
Top students with higher work ethic and involvement in school have merit (pun intended) beyond just increasing applications or making money for the school. Or so many schools think, that give generous merit scholarships and spend lots of money on honors programs, honors dorms, etc. This is also not a poor school for-profit type strategy, most high merit aid schools have high endowments or like Bama just invest heavily in attracting high quality OOS students so they can improve the school (and not just USNWR rankings).
Also no school has all easy or all hard majors, so using broad brush average student scores is pretty weak evidence of a dregs school. I’d be really careful using that name for any school that is accredited since it is very likely that some really high powered people have at least started out there (and most state school systems have pretty easy pathways to move to a flagship if you do really well at a lesser ranked school). You would be shocked to know who went where (look at LinkedIn sometime or biographies of people who succeed to high levels).
OP is pretty snooty and also presumes she understands this families finances, the daughters personal preferences, and other factor a lot better than a classmate (possibly snooty too) typically does. If the daughter and family are outright broadcasting their excitement - well, you know they think this is the right choice and it is their own dang choice. If she made a mistake, there are many ways to correct it, from transferring to doing research to graduating free of debt and getting into a fine medical school with a high GPA and maybe some self-studied MCAT success.
OP also needs to realize that the die is not yet cast for her daughter. No one is guaranteed a place in an Ivy or equivalent and some very good students don’t get into flagships. Lots of people get underwhelming financial aid packages that send them somewhere “beneath them”. Most of them probably keep a lower profile to keep people like OP from gossiping about them for 6 months or more … but heck, if you are proud, be proud (and a 4 year full ride is a fine prize even for a rockstar).
There are also far more high school rock stars than real life rock stars, and being a rock star in your life requires hard work, luck, and a good family life balance to make you happy. Free of sick relatives, spouses, children, accidents, cancer, heart disease, layoffs, bankruptcies, who knows what else can derail a rock stars career temporarily or permanently.
What the “directional” student seems to have is the good sense to be happy about her good fortune, which she has defined as a full-ride to the directional, not by an almost impossible $280K bill for Harvard. If she can continue this thinking, being happy about graduating, finding a good job, finding a good spouse, living a good life as defined by her … she is way ahead of most people.
How very interesting that you chose the example schools you did, Hunt. My D has toured both of them, and has several schoolmates from her HS who have applied to both. She didn’t care for VSU, though she liked another “lesser” one enough to apply, as she is at Howard, which impressed her. BUT, one of the “rock stars” from last year’s class applied, got in, but did not get enough merit or financial aid to attend. It’s not automatic merit, even when you qualify, it is first come, first served, I believe. She won awards, had the GPA, the stats, the whole package. And this year she’s at a community college because that’s what her single mom can afford. Real life examples are so much better than hypothetical s.
Another former schoolmate DID get into Howard and IS attending. I know he missed a full-ride becauwse he told my D. But obviously he got enough for his family to afford to go. And one of her “rock star” friends from another school is at an HBCU similar to VSU. But she’s going for free, in the honors college, and is finding not only enough of a challenge, but the support she needs coming from a family that can’t offer much. Sure, she’d probably have gotten into some of the “better” ones, but unlike her sister who went to a “better” PWI, she has stayed in school and is making her mark.
It seems like a lot of CC posters choose their (pre-college) school districts or magnets or private schools based on perceived quality…why not colleges too? In both cases there is a higher cost for more programs, generally higher achieving kids, etc.
What’s so very different?
You people are all over the place. Maybe we can cut threads off at 300 posts? Seems to turn into a bunch of bickering by then anyway.
OHMomof2 #292 – such a great question.
I struggle to answer it in a satisfactory way without contradicting myself. Perhaps the reason why we choose pre-college schools based on perceived quality is because the goal is to get into college. We believe that the better-name prep school or school district will provide a better education and maybe the name will tip off college admissions officers in our favor. How we define quality in the college experience varies from kid to kid and family to family. For example, for my daughter, the undergraduate school experience is a stepping stone to a graduate program. She’s already told me she will go wherever she can get the best price, even if it is not prestigious. My son, on the other hand, is a four-and-done kind of kid who wants to make money right away. He wants to go the school that looks best on a resume for his STEM field. In his case, the name will be a factor in our decision.
I love your story sseamom, but I have one that is a bit of yang to your yin.
A friend’s D was a valedictorian/rock star, went to big state flagship on a full tuition scholarship, and dropped out junior year to live with her drug-addict boyfriend in his car (that she had bought for him). There, the world is back in balance.
My D is at a state college where her ACT score is a full 10 points above the average. S1’s (neither drug addicted nor homeless, btw) gf is there and was a valedictorian rock star. Not everything has been perfect there but it’s darn close. It might be because the PNW is much less brand-conscious than when we lived in NY.
UCBAlumnus #274: How many of us would advise the kid in this example to put aside Berkeley’s provisional acceptance and pursue music instead? If I was his mother, I would be devastated that he chose music over education at that point. But look at him now! What a great story. His circuitous route to Berkeley was not a detraction, but an enhancement ultimately. He was getting life lessons you can’t learn in school, and wound up conquering Berkeley, now Harvard. He’s a rock star because he didn’t take what most of us think is the shortest distance between two points.
@Pizzagirl: Your prior statement did not elicit that comment.