<p>Sorry, I didn't realize there was an expiration date on opinions...especially when commenting on an open forum about my alma mater. My apologies...what was I thinking???</p>
<p>...it's just that that particular hornet's nest had finally settled down and didn't need to be stirred back up...I believe the concensus was that everyone agreed to disagree.</p>
<p>Maybe he just joined and saw the thread for the first time?</p>
<p>No worries, moby33, threads do not expire and they are open for comment unless closed by a MODERATOR.</p>
<p>Your opinion is welcomed regardless of when you entered the thread to respond.</p>
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<p>Certainly, no matter how misguided it might be. We can all understand one’s desire to rationalize their ‘cheating’.</p>
<p>friends ... the topic's fair game always. What makes it contentious is not the content but the manner in which we discuss it, i.e. tone, words chosen, etc. I'm more guilty than most, but I'm working at reform. </p>
<p>I'm being redundant of my own observations, thoughts, feelings about this topic, and while I believe 69 gives genuine, helpful insight on so many important topics, I'm in moby's camp of thought on this one. </p>
<p>More important, and take it from the horse's mouth ... some may choose another orafice on this ol' stud ... it's far more important how we communicate on issues like this one than what. Beauty is clearly unclear here and definitely in the eye of the sailor, imo. Seems many positions have been clearly expressed and it may indeed simply be the "answer" is agreeing to disagree. yes? :confused: ;)</p>
<p>Let me try to put this another way. Both sides have clearly and succintly put forth their views. Future plebes can read these opinions and make their own decisions. This is but one of many times in life when the "right" answer may not always be crystal clear.</p>
<p>There are a lot more important things to do than to memorize Reef Points in order to prepare for USNA - especially in the physical fitness arena.</p>
<p>The advantage you gain will most likely be very fleeting - you'll be drinking from the proverbial fire hose from Day 1, and you may utlimately be doing yourself a disservice.</p>
<p>Rates are important, but so are learning to shine shoes, make a rack, wear your uniform correctly, march, do close order drill, etc. The NAPSters and Fleet Accessions will have a head start on civilians coming in for those areas, but nobody is expected to sail through the summer, and almost nobody does.</p>
<p>You need to learn "how to learn" and assimilate lots of information quickly, and to perform under pressure. It only gets harder in the Fleet. Learning Reef Points cover to cover prior to I-Day might disadvantage you in the long term. Your call, though.</p>
<p>I taught my kids the Navy Fight Songs when they were babies - mostly because I thought it was cute to hear them singing, "The Goat is Old and Gnarly". It gave them a small advantage during "Blue and Gold" in the evenings during Plebe Summer, but it also meant that whenever there was an opportunity to "put someone on the spot", guess what: they got to lead the sing-along. Not something they were very happy about because neither sings very well and being the center of attention isn't a lot fun during Plebe Summer.</p>
<p>^^^^ will add one more "important thing" to dad&grad's list-
and that is to concentrate on finishing up your senior year at high school-
make sure those grades don't dive-
you aren't at the finish line yet, and that is where your attention needs to remain right now.</p>
<p>reef points, rates, fight songs- all will come in due time, but right now they are "secondary, optional and conditional."</p>
<p>Get your senior finished- mid terms and finals.
Then you can worry about all the other stuff.</p>
<p>I’d like to suggest we take a step back and ask why we are here on this board and why do we post? I assume those of us that are adults and not potential candidates, are here to help? We may have kids of our own currently at the academy or a son or daughter that attended at some point in the past. Some may be graduates with first hand knowledge and experience to share. </p>
<p>I assume we all have a common interest in helping young adults understand what they are facing when considering their application and attendance to the Naval Academy? We all try to do what we can to make the application process and what comes after something young adults can understand and appreciate to the extent that is possible through written word. </p>
<p>To put it another way; we all share a common goal; we may disagree at times on the advice we give, but knowing that we are here for the same reason should provide us with an appreciation for each individual contribution and the capacity to discriminate between the need to address obviously incorrect information and the responsibility we all share to respect the opinions of others. </p>
<p>This forum may not have any direct affiliation with the Naval Academy, and yet there is no doubt the manner in which we conduct ourselves will ultimately reflect on the perceptions visitors to this board will come away with regarding the Academy.</p>
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<p>If it were only so simple. In many cases on this forum we have individuals offering advice who don’t even have the most miniscule grasp of the situation. This is one of those cases. To me, encouraging the study of Reef Points is obviously incorrect information while, to others, I suppose I am being admonished for not respecting the opinions of others.</p>
<p>Plebe summer and plebe year teaches one to multitask and prioritize in an extremely stressful environment. These two attributes are not gradable on a pass/fail system. Nor can anyone ever be perfect. Everyone commences at their own individual point and grows accordingly to their specific exposure to different elements. </p>
<p>As service selection comes into play, each will hopefully realize both their attributes and limitations and select accordingly. Throughout the fleet, like minded will pool together. Did you know that the mission of the single seat Super Hornet squadrons and the two seat squadrons is exactly the same? Which pilot do you think is more adept at multitasking and prioritizing. Bottom line is most will go through their entire military career without realizing the ramifications of what they learned plebe summer. They think they are just normal. However, it does hit home for a few. Each aviation community has a term for the guy that can’t quite keep up, who can’t multitask to the level required for his job. Take the cruise speed of the platform and divide by two. The helo guy is the ’40 knot brain’, P-3 is the ‘120 knot brain’, and the jet jock is the ‘250 knot brain’. Ostracized and drummed out of the service because they were the oddballs, the ones who couldn’t multitask sufficiently to do their job.</p>
<p>Now these remaining individuals reach retirement. They find that certain companies will seek them out, appointing them project managers, managers of multiple projects, rewarding them handsomely for their attributes. They will learn the frustrations of dealing with those who have not had a plebe year, hard-working college educated professionals, professionals who shut down if they are asked to do more than one thing at a time. </p>
<p>Read what Marshall Carter, USMA, Class of 1962, Chairman of the New York Stock Exchange said to the gathered WP Corps of Cadets a couple of years ago regarding his lack of an MBA and not having a business background:</p>
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[quote]
My answer is always direct – I use the same leadership skills I learned at West Point and as a company grade officer in combat. The difference, now of course, is that I carry on my hip, a cell phone, a blackberry, and a pager instead of a Berretta pistol!!</p>
<p>Since entering here as plebes you have been acquiring skills that are rapidly becoming part of your DNA, your operating style, and your future.</p>
<p>So regardless of whether you devote your life, and it is a way of life, not a job, to a military career, which we all hope you’ll do, or choose other avenues, these are the traits that will mark you, and the ones I have used successfully:</p>
<pre><code>Multi-Tasking – You’ve been learning this since Beast Barracks and plebe year when studying while shining equipment or doing other things was routine. Once you’re commissioned, it becomes a critical skill at all levels but especially lieutenants and captains. I can instantly recall as a 26 year old infantry company commander during my first tour in Vietnam, leading the company during an assault while talking to the 4 platoon leaders, my mortar section leader, the artillery FO, forward air controllers, helicopter gunships, thinking about re-supply, and occasionally reporting to my battalion commander. That’s the ultimate multi-tasking, and it’s not a skill I see often in business.
Finally, an Ability to Prioritize - to determine what’s mission critical, what decisions need to be made today versus those that don’t impact immediate operations. Again, another skill I don’t see often outside the military.
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<p>Multitasking and the ability to prioritize, skills he doesn’t often see outside the military. Skills learned ever since Beast Barracks. Amazing.</p>
<p>The Academy grad finds himself flourishing in this new environment, advancing rapidly. Younger Academy retirees will come to him and ask his advice, ask his assistance in preparing them for a civilian career. He will tell them to exploit their assets, tell the human resources people that they are multitaskers, that they can prioritize, that they can keep a half dozen balls in the air at the same time. They will get hired. They will succeed. </p>
<p>Somewhere along the line, maybe not until retirement, the old Grad will grow reflective, will question why he was so successful, what USNA taught him that no other experience could have. Only then will he realize that Plebe Summer and Year was probably the most definitive and influential period in his life, no melodrama whatsoever. He did not learn Reef Points early. He played the game. He did not cheat himself out of any of the entire experience.</p>
<p>I understand the question.</p>
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If it were only so simple. In many cases on this forum we have individuals offering advice who don’t even have the most miniscule grasp of the situation. This is one of those cases. To me, encouraging the study of Reef Points is obviously incorrect information while, to others, I suppose I am being admonished for not respecting the opinions of others.
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<p>‘69 my comments were not directed towards you, they were posted for the board as a whole, we’ve hit 90 posts on this question and for the most part the discussion hasn’t changed in a substantive way past the first 10. </p>
<p>I don’t want to engage in a discussion of semantics, but if you were to allow me the liberty of characterizing your observations and recommendations I would simply say that you feel those that suggest or do not discourage studying reef points in advance are giving bad advice. I understand and appreciate that advice. I just don’t know how you can characterize an “opinion” on this subject as correct or incorrect. There is no doubt that the opinions of some carry more weight than others; the opinions of grads would be at the top of my list on who to consider as most credible. </p>
<p>The problem is with a subjective issue such as this, to use your words; if only it were only so simple; the fact is it’s not simple, I don’t believe it’s a question that you can answer with a simple yes or no or true or false or for that matter make it a subject that merits the level of discussion we have engaged in. I think if a kid is bright enough to get into the Naval Academy he/she could read about 10 of our posts on this subject and come to the conclusion that this is a surprising controversial subject considering how seemingly innocuous the initial question may have been; as in “should I study reef points”. </p>
<p>If we wanted to spin this in another direction and consider what else a prospective Mid could do to prepare for the Academy and potentially reduce their stress level; you could also propose if a kid shows up in fantastic shape they would they be “cheating”. While their peers are dragging a**, they wouldn’t be breaking a sweat, Plebe summer would be a lot less stressful if the physical demands were reduced would they not? </p>
<p>I think in the end, and this is obviously just my opinion, it doesn’t matter all that much, I don’t care how smart you are, how good your memory is, or what kind of shape you are in, the upperclassmen that are there to get you ready to become a part of the brigade are going to find whatever faults are necessary with you’re performance to make sure you share in the pain and to put you into stressful situations and expect you to perform. I think the lessons that need to be learned; the ability to study, remember and react under high levels of stress will still be available to a kid that flipped through a copy of reef points. </p>
<p>So would I encourage my son to spend time studying anything past what was recommended in the permit to report package? No. I’d just tell him to enjoy himself before he reports because once he walks through that first door in Alumni hall, his life is going to change in a very real way.</p>
<p>ZINGER! well said zoom. hopefully your good advice will finally put this topic to rest.</p>
<p>Translation of USNA69:
The older I get, the better I was!
Classic (oh wait, that's right, you weren't talking about yourself due to the 3rd person structure...my mistake, sorry.)</p>
<p>Moby, for being a short-time participatn, you have quickly and succinctly identified a big problem herein.</p>
<p>RJR calls it pretty well.</p>
<p>The REAL value (problem?) w/ resurrecting this thread? MORE examples to applicants of how the Acadmey produces BOTH good and bad graduates.</p>
<p>This is why I love forums...never a shortage of opinions on both sides of the line...healthy and usually constructive. But it’s disheartening to see when individuals take things too seriously. Jokes are just that...jokes.</p>
<p>Obviously I don't see eye-to-eye w/ USNA69 on this topic, but you'll NEVER see me label the gentleman as a good or bad grad...I know nothing about him (other than the fact that he graduated from the greatest service academy in the US). Hell, he's probably one hell of a guy, but I'll probably never really know. IMO, it would be incorrect to classify strangers on a forum to be good or bad grads simply by a few harmless posts. That is a problem.</p>
<p>I apologize for high jacking this thread (a thread that obviously many were all too happy to see die weeks ago) and because of this I will let it die w/ regard to 'ol (new) Moby33's further comments. Good luck to all entering candidates...you're in for the ride of your life...w/o a doubt one of the most rewarding rides you'll ever take. Go Navy, Beat Army!!!</p>
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<p>There are,in fact, some things that come only with age and experience. One of them is to know the difference between the ability to make a valid point and just being quiet and listening to others.</p>
<p>still shut down zooms points were off the chain</p>
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<p>jeitn, don't be too rough on zoom. Even though he cannot support his 'opinion' with a single fact or any evidence or experience whatsoever, as he states, we should 'respect' it. Thankfully, you are intelligent enough to see it for what it actually is and can act accordingly.</p>
<p>lol. actually, "off the chain" means "really good".</p>
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There are,in fact, some things that come only with age and experience. One of them is to know the difference between the ability to make a valid point and just being quiet and listening to others.
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<p>And another is realizing it's time to give something a rest regardless of who's "right." :confused: Right? ;)</p>
<p>RIIIIIIIIGHT! :cool:</p>