The skinny on reef points

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Obviously not. jeitn seems to continue to be of the presence, probably somewhat due to the ‘opinions’ which he has received on this forum, that he is doing the ‘right’ thing. </p>

<p>My understanding is that this forum has a history of promoting the advanced study of Reef Points. Those who have done so reported on this forum and to their parents that it ‘helped”, it made the Plebe experience easier. The result has been a group of slightly informed misguided parents and a few midshipmen who have bought into this ‘easier/better’ concept. </p>

<p>Easier is not always better. Sometimes in life there are no shortcuts. This is one of those instances. By taking the easy way out, Plebes are missing the intent of the entire exercise. It is not merely two equal opinions. One is right and the other is wrong. This is a time to listen to the older grads. They know of which they speak.</p>

<p>And as long as candidates continue to fail to see the light, whatever I can do to help them and make them better officers, I will continue to do so. However, you parents who really have no business being in this fray, are making it extremely difficult.</p>

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<p>True, but he's got the excuse of impetuous youthfulness.</p>

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<p>i've read this thread recently with some interest, not because i am headed to usna, but because i am headed to VMI and they have something similar to reef points called the "Rat Bible" which is treated by the vmi cadre in a similar way (rats have to memorize and are punished if they don't). so the question comes up, should study up on it before i get there to make things easier. i wouldn't even have to go to ebay to do that:
Class</a> of '89 Rat Bible
<a href="http://www.vmi.edu/uploadedFiles/Archives/Records/Rat_Bible/Bullet1917.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.vmi.edu/uploadedFiles/Archives/Records/Rat_Bible/Bullet1917.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>after reading this thread and thinking it over, i realize that it would be cheating. not because i necessarily like usna69 or want to make points with him- he actually seems a bit abrasive on here. but because i realize he speaks the truth.</p>

<p>here is what it boils down to for me. (i'm going to talk about this from the perspective of USNA- but it's all very similar at VMI)</p>

<p>for me, it starts with the purpose of memorizing reef points. why is this one of the cores of the plebe experience? why to do you get punished if you forget a single word of a poem like, "Every bone in me body is a spar, and when I spits, I spits tar! I'se hard, I is, I am, I are." do these words contain vital information that will allow us to defeat our enemies? lol...</p>

<p>some parts of the rates obviously are important. in Navy Junior ROTC right now, we memorize the General Orders of a Sentry. But nonsence poems to memorize for esprit de corp? it's to make you mentally tough and to weed out those who can't learn to handle stress, like what you will have to deal with under fire in time of war.
here are some quotes about the role of reef points:</p>

<p>"[during the 1st session] the Plebes are also required to begin memorizing much of the information in their copies of Reef Points." (Plebe</a> summer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) </p>

<p>"[by the 2nd session] most of the Plebes have memorized Reef Points from cover to cover and have the ability to recite any of that information when questioned by the detailers. Typically, this questioning on the Plebes' rates occurs during meals and in between planned activities in order to test the Plebes' ability to remember important information in stressful situations." (Plebe</a> summer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )</p>

<p>"The goal of the Plebe system is to begin to instill the attributes I mentioned earlier, and to systematically weed out those who cannot meet the Academy's requirements. Specifically, the goal is to instill the drive and commitment, the self-discipline needed to succeed as an officer. ... Come-around" was the slang term for one of the most intense parts of Plebe Year: the twice-daily, 30 minute indoctrination (read hazing) sessions. These consisted of interrogations by the upperclassmen on all aspects of required professional knowledge, and physical exercise as punishment for incorrect answers. ... They started with the things you were required to memorize and be able to recite at any time. The poems I mentioned earlier were contained in little blue book titled "Reef Points". It contained 218 pages of information on the history and mission of the Academy, technical details of Navy ships and aircraft, famous sayings, and a section on traditions and trivia. You were responsible for knowing all of it, and memorizing at lot of it. Your copy of "Reef Points" was required to be on your person any time you were out of your room. Then there were Plebe Rates. Every plebe was expected to be able to recite from memory all of the following: the number of days until the Army/Navy football game, Christmas vacation, the Second Class Ring Dance, and First Class Graduation; the names and ranks of the four Officers of the Watch and the uniform of the day; the names of the movies showing in Annapolis and the results of any Navy sporting event; the menu for the next meal; and finally, the highlights of the front and sports pages of that day's newspaper. Failure to recite any of these would generate a "come around. ... All of this emphasis on stress was done to begin to prepare you for the stress of making decisions in combat. They continually made a connection between your performance of seemingly small, trivial, or meaningless tasks and your preparation to fulfill the requirements of an officer. The basic idea was: if you are careless or sloppy with these little things now, you might be careless or sloppy with big things later, such as multi-million dollar jet fighters or ballistic missile submarines, or even men's lives. ... Well, to begin with, 37% of my Plebe class failed to make it to graduation. I always thought that level of attrition was pretty high, given how hard it was to get into the Academy in the first place. Those of us who made it to the end only did so through desire, an unwillingness to give up, and in my case, a determination to take it one day at a time and not be intimidated by the enormity of the task as I saw it." (Mental</a> Toughness The Navy Way - Article by Bill Cole and Rick Seaman )</p>

<p>so all of this seems almost like a game, almost like a ridiculous punishment, but it's all about making a naval officer and creating someone who can lead and follow. and if the usna's training doesn't do this, then it fails. MEMORIZING reef points and being able to recite on demand under stress is all part of this training. </p>

<p>here is a poem about this:</p>

<p>And "Reef Points" is your bible.
But it's more'n likely liable
They'll only ask you the parts you haven't read.
...
Tho' they did their best to break me,
In the end they couldn't make me
Pack it in: I stayed tru-blue Navy to the core.
....
But let me tell you mate,
It takes a hell of a lot of guts to be a Plebe.
(from "The Plebe" by John Sharpe - THE</a> PLEBE )</p>

<p>now consider what it would be if EVERY SINGLE PLEBE had already memorized every single word in reef points before they came into the usna.</p>

<p>would this part of the usna training work? i'd say not! what would be the point of making you recite what you knew better than your own name BEFORE you arrived at the usna?</p>

<p>so if having the entire student body memorize reef points BEFORE ENTERING USNA doesn't further the training at the usna, i'd say that not only does it not further the training of the few that make it a point to memorize reef points before they enter usna, but just like having your parents prepare your usna application and having them do everything for your application, memorizing reef points before you attend usna is a form of cheating- and if you need to have your parents prepare your app and you need to memorize reef points so that you are under less stress at the usna, then you don't deserve to become an officer in the world's greatest navy. it sounds harsh, but i hope those who had their parents prepare their apps, call their BGOs, handle their dodmerb process, handle their moc nominations, will always feel that perhaps they didn't deserve to get in. and likewise, those eventually graduate but had to "get a leg up" on the competition and try to avoid a bit of punishment by memorizing reef points before they entered, while they were under less stress, will always wonder if they deserved to stay in the usna and deserved to wear the uniform.</p>

<p>there. i said it.</p>

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<p>DSL good luck at VMI, we visited with my two oldest sons and were impressed with their approach to providing a military school environment as well as their educational philosophy; small class size etc. My oldest applied there as well as Virginia Tech, the CGA and the USNA. </p>

<p>And thank you for the translation of Jeitn's remarks, must be my age showing but I really wasn't sure about the "off the chain" comment either. Like it or not I apparently have something in common with '69.</p>

<p>Speaking of my friend, </p>

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However, you parents who really have no business being in this fray, are making it extremely difficult.

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<p>'69, I think you must have misspoke, you might want to go back and check....what you obviously meant to say was anyone that disagrees with your assessment and advice has no business being in this fray; as a number of grads have obviously come down on the opposite side of this extremely lengthy and tedious discussion about what will likely be a non issue to most every kid that walks onto the yard to begin their naval career. </p>

<p>It’s also interesting to note the evolution of this logic; first we had the “I’m smart and you’re stupid” approach because I’m a grad and you’re not and then when other grads posted in “defense” of idea that looking over reef points might not be that big a deal…we moved to “older grads are smart” ….”younger grads are stupid” defense…. </p>

<p>Continuing an argument based in minutia and semantics with someone that for all intensive purpose, agrees with you doesn’t make a lot of sense either as the argument becomes the issue rather than the potentially valid points you are trying to make. </p>

<p>Some how I think going through a copy of reef points isn't going to keep a kid from making Admiral at some point in his/her career because they did not enjoy a “total” Plebe year experience….. A lack of tolerance and the capacity to consider and respect the opinion of others along with a failure to apply common sense when appropriate; to WP's point, as in knowing when enough has been said about a subject, might on the other hand adversely impact one's career. </p>

<p>We also have to recognize that one cannot simply extrapolate one’s experiences; values and lessons learned from events across generations without making some mistakes (“off the chain”); what mattered 40 years ago may not impact or have the same effect on kids today. Their life experiences, the things they have been exposed to, the opportunities that they’ve had would have been the stuff of dreams to a kid 4 decades ago. The kids about to report for the class of 2012 are not the same kids that reported for the class of 1969. </p>

<p>They along with the Naval Academy may have the same or similar goals, but those kids grew up in a different country at a different time; one could easily make the case that someone 40 years their senior has less of an understanding than a recent graduate about what may matter to them and cause them to become better officers in the context of their career despite graduating from the same institution they are about to enter. The world and the United States Navy are not static entities, they both have changed over the past 40 years; missions change; the world in which our Navy must operate continues to evolve. I would expect the skill set and the appropriate preparation to become a successful Naval officer would also have changed. </p>

<p>With age we hope comes maturity and patience and the capacity to look back and assess; to be introspective about one’s life. Though those of us that have grown older, frequently fail to appreciate how much of our life has been filtered through our experiences; not everything stays with us, not everything comes through at the end, the clarity which we claim to see what we may have missed or failed to appreciate in our youthful past is sometimes nothing more than an absence of any vision at all; an inability or lack of capacity to see what is really there.</p>

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<p>As a future plebe for Class of 2012, I have been watching this thread carefully and taking in all sides of the argument. I have to agree with zoom and DSL that USNA69 may not have gone about this in the best way, but in the end I have to agree with him. Very strongly too. I will not post all my reasons (DSL has already basically done that :)....I am just posting to say that this is one future plebe who will not read Reef Points before I-day. I believe in the system's ability to mold me, and my own ability to persevere and be molded.</p>

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<p>haha off the chain means good. although talking like that may seem a little youthful (which it is), some people definitely need to chill, take a step back and remember that this is a forum for those going into college. a little information here and there from those who went through the process will never hurt unless that information turns into plain arrogrance, then its just too annoying and time-consuming to take seriously.</p>

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<p>unless you have an** A **in chemestry, an **A **in calculus and an **A **in English Lit, may I suggest you get your noses out of Reef Points and your eyes focused back on what is really important!</p>

<p>You have how many weeks left until your senior year is finished?
don't blow it now.
Your final grades do and will count.</p>

<p>Enough of Reef Points.
If you are done with your chem and your calc and your english lit, then by all means start cracking your physics books- you are gonna need that too.</p>

<p>Can we all move on now????</p>

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<p>Zoom, you may be jumping to conclusions again to assume that we have something in common. Down here in Michael Vick country, on and off the chain refers to fighting dogs either being on their leash and under control or off their leash and out of control The latter, I thought, was a relatively good description of your logic concerning this discussion.</p>

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<p>jpr, </p>

<p>good for you and good luck, it's your choice to make. </p>

<p>'69, once again you are right, so much for something in common... you're right on the money though, I would never try and rationalize or redefine someones criticisms of me by substituting my own definitions so I can pretend to make a negative into a positive</p>

<p>...woof woof</p>

<p>and to navy2010 I'll bet you another bottle of that Merlot (did you ever get the first one?) that there will be a post #110 </p>

<p>maybe we should use the Merlot to bribe the mod to nuke the thread....well at least everything after the first few pages</p>

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<p>"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
-Joseph Joubert </p>

<p>"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.</p>

<p>(you win the bottle rjrzoom)</p>

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Down here in Michael Vick country, on and off the chain refers to fighting dogs either being on their leash and under control or off their leash and out of control

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<p>From someone who is from Vick country too i.e Atl Falcons, Georgia...ATL, land of hip hop etc....
Off the chain in ATL does in fact does mean a good thing!</p>

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<p>No matter how much zoom wants to falsely belittle and besmirch me that I am making stuff up for my own benefit. From the internet Urban Dictionary:</p>

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It has one definition. Simply, wild, running wild out of control. REfering to your pit bull he is off his chain meaning he is out of control and could kill someone every body is freakin out.

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<p>Perhaps, dog fighting is not an urban Atlanta thing.</p>

<p>And you all wonder why it is sometimes an effort for me to remain civil to certain people.</p>

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<p>I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore because I made my point a long time ago and I think everyone should agree to disagree and learn to stop and shut up at some point BUT I'm from ATL as well and off the chain means something good. I have never heard of it Might want to check on this generation's slang. Even on urbandictionary.com (which isn't always 100% accurate, but it gives many good definitions of different slang terms) it's referred to as a good thing.</p>

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<p>ok. i must admit- i tried really really hard and just couldn't do it.</p>

<p>i just could not think of what argument those on the other side of this discussion make about why plebes would be made to memorize reef points and get a come around when they make a mistake.</p>

<p>because this seems to be at the real heart of this argument for or for not studying reef points before going to usna. i know that on my side of the table, i say that memorizing reef points word for word is purposeful and planned training. to memorize it in advance is to evade that training.</p>

<p>so i just cant imagine what the argument is for why reading reef points in advance is actually totally cool and fine. i don't get these abstract arguments that seem to say to me that everyone has a valid point we can all just do as we like. i don't see how that connects to whether it is cool to be able to read reef points in advance or not.</p>

<p>can someone on the other side of this argument just fill me in on what you think memorizing reef points is ACTUALLY for in this modern day at the usna?</p>

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<p>DSL, </p>

<p>Your questions are good ones and entirely appropriate, this site exists to give individuals like yourself the opportunity to present such questions and hopefully receive some reasonable answers in return. </p>

<p>I’d like to think there is at least to some extent a consensus as it appears the a majority of people that have commented that it does not make a great deal of sense to spend time studying reef points prior to reporting for duty. For most it will be your senior year high school. You are about to embark on a life changing experience and there is quite frankly so much to do in not a lot of time before I-day. As some have said you should be making sure you keep up your grades, getting in the best shape possible or maybe just enjoying some of you last days of “freedom” before the summer begins. </p>

<p>I would agree with the recommendations of most of those posting that have suggested you limit your preparation to studying just what is recommended in your permit to report package and leave reef points as something to open for the first time once you arrive at the yard. As others have said, the “ritual” does have a purpose and is part of a plan and process that is designed to benefit both you and ultimately the Navy. </p>

<p>There are some individuals here that suggest if you happened to tune in to this thread AFTER reading through reef points, and failed to become enlightened in time, your potential as a future Naval officer has been compromised. You should just hang it up now, as you won’t enjoy the benefits of those that do not read anything beforehand. I think that assessment is…..off the chain… (wait is that a good or bad thing? I’m so confused…) off the wall perhaps? At least I get that one. Respecting the intelligence of the individual posing a question is a great place to start when considering how you may present an answer or provide an opinion. </p>

<p>Many good points have been made and many good reasons given to consider the advice of those that have come before you. In the end this is your decision and yours alone and it appears that you have made your choice; good for you. </p>

<p>So now you are probably wondering why are we on post 115? If you have the intelligence and abilities necessary to make the cut at the Naval Academy I think you can sort that out for yourself. Good luck and have a great summer :-)<br>
.</p>

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<p>LOL. What a funny thread this mess is. Opining only, as I'm <em>just</em> a mom here... But if you gouge Reef Points prior to I-Day, you'll just get the pleasure of memorizing something else. Touting your superior knowledge will not end up being a pleasant thing during the summer, whether you've memorized Reef Points in its entirety, or are bringing in real-time knowledge from the Fleet, or have a deeper grasp of the info due to NAPS. It is with certainty that the Cadre and CO's will find a way to test you, and will work diligently to help you learn where your weaknesses are and how USNA expects you to improve. My son had heard enough of the chow calls that he had several of them memorized before I-Day; but, under pressure and lack of sleep, even those will get muddled. Same with the CoC listing (which wasn't correct from what was sent out in the Permit packet to the date for I-Day, as CNO changed, and, the Supe had changed. So, some knowledge of current events for USNA & Navy are helpful, too. Whoever on these posts has said "focus on your senior year"...absolutely the best advice. Keep your grades up. Keep at your ECAs. Enjoy your friends. Prepare for graduation. Clean your room. Spend time with your family. And, if you still have time left, more than anything...work on getting and staying in shape/healthy. IMHO, that will serve you better than having Reef Points down to rote memorization. (what a hoot! This forum is a lot more fun to read if you only show up once a month! lolol... Too funny...) j.</p>

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<p>Just to weigh in....I'm from Atlanta, too...never heard of that term! But, I don't get out much....</p>

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<p>What I said:</p>

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Memorizing reef points early is, pure and simple, circumventing the intention of the exercise. It is taking the easy way out. ………………………… those who do so are not reaping the intended benefits

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<p>What rjrzoom57 wants you to think I said:</p>

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There are some individuals here that suggest if you happened to tune in to this thread AFTER reading through reef points, and failed to become enlightened in time, your potential as a future Naval officer has been compromised. You should just hang it up now

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<p>What zoom also said:</p>

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knowing that we are here for the same reason should provide us with an appreciation for each individual contribution and the capacity to discriminate between the need to address obviously incorrect information and the responsibility we all share to respect the opinions of others.

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<p>Does the ‘respect the opinion of others’ include such wild speculation?</p>

<p>Again, you might wonder why it is sometimes difficult for me to remain civil to certain individuals on this forum.</p>

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Again, you might wonder why it is sometimes difficult for me to remain civil to certain individuals on this forum.

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<p>’69, I really doubt anyone on this bulletin board has ever considered your potential to be civil to anyone that has made the mistake of posting an opinion you disagree with. I’m sure there have been times where your decision to be “blunt” and to the point has been misinterpreted as being rude or dismissive; such is the nature of a anonymous system such as this where body language and your voice are not part of the process of communication. It is easy to misinterpret comments without those visual and vocal cues and physical contexts. </p>

<p>I think you can trace back where this thread went off the tracks to the point where you asserted that reading reef points in advance amounted to “cheating”. Given the emphasis the Naval Academy places on the issue of honor and honesty using that term generated understandable reactions on the part of many. </p>

<p>Cheating is a term that one would normally equate with obtaining the answers to an exam in advance; such an action would also be indicative of a very serious character defect. English is a language of words and when you choose your words theirs meanings should be consistent with the point or objective you are trying to make or reach. </p>

<p>When someone chooses to characterize two actions that are disproportionate in terms of their seriousness, an “exaggeration for effect” if you will, you either end up diminishing the true nature of one, or grossly exaggerating the implications of the other. </p>

<p>Reading Reef Points in advance of Plebe Summer is not in any way shape or form equal to “cheating” on your Chemistry final; one may be something a potential Plebe should not waste there time on and the other is a very serious honor violation. </p>

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There are some individuals here that suggest if you happened to tune in to this thread AFTER reading through reef points, and failed to become enlightened in time, your potential as a future Naval officer has been compromised. You should just hang it up now

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<p>So how exactly should a potential Plebe proceed after their actions have been characterized as “cheating”, given the meaning of that word in the context of the Naval Academy honor code? </p>

<p>To have someone tell them they have somehow not only diminished their Plebe year experience by starting off doing something they actually might have thought was a good thing; as in preparing oneself for what is come, but to have someone make the case they are beginning their “Navy experience” harboring a very serious character flaw?</p>

<p>“You’re a Cheater” How should they interpret such a characterization coming to them from an Academy grad and BGO who obviously must know what he is talking about? </p>

<p>With the possible exception of a career in politics, what kind of future does a kid that “cheats” have, much less in the Navy? How exactly should they interpret your characterization if not to suggest it’s over before they even begin? </p>

<p>In the end I think all that is needed is some common sense and the ability to keep things in perspective, because how you view things is truly a matter of perspective. Take our side bar discussion about “off the chain”, was it supposed to be a slang term indicating a good or bad thing? </p>

<p>If you are the guy holding the leash, I assume “off the chain” would be a bad thing, a loss of control etc, on the other hand, if you are the dog of the four or two legged variety, then off the chain would most obviously be a good thing. It all comes down to which end of the chain you are on.</p>

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<p>Here is a synopsis of the meaning of ‘cheating’ as I used it. The first was in response to a question of whether I considered it an honor offense, and, thusly, set the stage for the remaining comments:</p>

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[quote]
Nah, just cheating in not playing the game as it was intended to be played.</p>

<p>Cheating, as per my Webster’s, “does not always suggest fraudulence or a harmful motive”. Remember, on man-to-man defenses, our coaches always told us to ‘cheat’ to our opponent’s strong side. Not a lot of high school athletes in jail for it though.</p>

<p>Don't cheat the system.</p>

<p>In my opinion, one who memorizes beforehand, as others have pointed out, are not reaping the intent of the reasoning behind the exercise. Yes, I do call that 'cheating'.</p>

<p>He did not learn Reef Points early. He played the game. He did not cheat himself out of any of the entire experience.

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<p>Again, this is what rjrzoom57 would want you to believe that I said:</p>

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Cheating is a term that one would normally equate with obtaining the answers to an exam in advance; such an action would also be indicative of a very serious character defect........ is not in any way shape or form equal to “cheating” on your Chemistry final

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<p>Again, a respect of the opinions of others by grossly exhaggerating??? I think not. Zoom, might I suggest you read the thread before, once again, attempting to get the last piece of unsubstantiated mud slinging in.</p>