<p>It's wrong or snotty to consider what doors your degree will open? Please!</p>
<p>To portray today's ivy league kids as spoiled, entitled brats is only possible among people who don't know who's there.</p>
<p>Any parent sporting an ivy decal should be really proud. It means they raised a hard working kid whose priority is education.</p>
<p><<it seems="" far="" too="" clever="" to="" me="" post="" in="" cc="" and="" act="" as="" if="" you="" do="" not="" care="" about="" the="" quality="" of="" a="" particular="" school="" perception="" that="" quality.="">></it></p>
<p>I do care about the quality of the college my kids attend. But I care about it in terms of the education, the environment, the fit, the campus but not in terms of the perception or prestige or status. </p>
<p>I guess what I find most intriguing is that you think that a person is not being honest with herself and/or with you if she claims that prestige, status or the perceptions of others are not relevant factors. I understand that you feel that it is impossible for for a person to feel that way but that's more of a reflection of your inability to comprehend another person's priorities than it is a reflection of another person's veracity.</p>
<p>Nedad - Wishing you and your mom the best; our thoughts are with you.</p>
<p>"Employers screen by where you got your degree." OK - I confess - I fall into that category. Let me explain why (and no doubt incur the wrath of many posters). I graduated from an Ivy League law school; I'm not embarrassed to say that, nor, on the other hand, do I view it as some badge of honor. I didn't pick the school because it was any Ivy, but rather, because it was an excellent school, one I thought I'd be very happy at (which I was) and one I thought would lead to employment opportunities after graduation (which it did). My classmates (with very limited exception) were extremely bright, academically accomplished individuals. Were there jerks among us? Sure. No doubt you find those at any school - Ivy or non-Ivy. But, I would have been happy to hire virtually any one of my classmates if I found myself in legal trouble. Now, in practice, I find - and this is a generalization of course - that young law school grads who come out (at undergrad and law school levels) from the tops schools (which I don't limit to just the Ivies, but rather include top state universities and top LAC's) consistently perform well in analytical tasks and in written work product. Does this mean that all Ivy/top LAC grads are the "best" workers - absolutely not. Does this mean that graduates of non-Ivy/top LAC schools can't shine every bit as much as an Ivy grad - absolutely not. But my own experience has caused me to reach the conclusions I have, to generalize as I have, and to find myself, on more than one occasion, proven wrong -- but on many, many occasions -- proven right.
OK - let the wrath rain down!</p>
<p>Recruiting is a lot of work and a major expense to companies. So they recruit where they can find the highest concentrations of the type of candidate they are looking for. Many companies actually avoid the ivies for this reason. If they are based somewhere not very desirable and they are not an exciting company, they know top students will not stay interested for long. But if you have opportunities for the best and the brightest, where would you go?</p>
<p>No flames here schoolmarm.</p>
<p>"what I find most intriguing is that you think that a person is not being honest with herself and/or with you if she claims that prestige, status or the perceptions of others are not relevant factors."</p>
<p>ctnjpamom,</p>
<p>Im sorry, I wasnt clear; its not that I think a person cannot be honest with him/herself. Im claiming that people who dispute it into the ground are not being honest with themselves, based on the premise that if they didnt carethey wouldnt careand no one else would know if they cared or not.</p>
<p>I would think that if you are involved in a particular discourse you are likely concerned/affected by the subject of that discourse. Perhaps there are those who have a superior ability to completely detach themselves from their opinions/discourse, if you are one of them Im in awe of an ability that I do not believe can be taught in elite private or public schools.
Certainly, many people are unaffected by that which they have no intercourse with--but there are few virgins on these boards. lol</p>
<p><<ctnjpamom...did not="" see="" your="" last="" post="" when="" i="" posted="" above="" but="" please="" do="" assume="" that="" those="" who="" have="" gone="" to="" selective="" colleges="" did="" so="" with="" the="" thought="" of="" school="" "opening="" doors"="" or="" having="" better="" career="" grad="" prospects.="" know="" none="" entered="" my="" d's="" decision="" making.="" she="" picked,="" like="" son="" is="" doing,="" schools="" best="" fit="" her="" college="" criteria="" which="" had="" nothing="" points.="" indeed="" wanted="" a="" challenging="" learning="" environment="" never="" about="" it="" being="" stepping="" stone="" some="" other="" opportunity.="">></ctnjpamom...did></p>
<p>I'm glad to read that you and your daughter also didn't view college as some sort of stepping stone or door-opener, that it was the learning environment itself that she was interested in. It sounds like she made a good decision, based on her own priorities. </p>
<p><<by the="" same="" token,="" it="" might="" make="" sense="" in="" your="" situation="" to="" take="" free="" ride="" at="" state="" school="" or="" wherever="" that="" offer="" was="" made.="" my="" child="" got="" such="" an="" as="" well="" but="" we="" let="" her="" go="" college="" she="" felt="" really="" matched="" what="" looking="" for="" and="" other="" did="" not="" several="" respects.="" these="" are="" family="" decisions="" you="" should="" do="" works="" you.="" will="" be="" a="" success="" no="" matter="" where="" he="" goes.="" enter="" into="" it.="" fit="" him.="" if="" goes="" with="" more="" so="" called="" "elite"="" because="" is="" better="" match,="" decide="" save="" money,="" also="" good="" decision.="">></by></p>
<p>Well, I guess that's how I felt about it, that my son will be successful no matter where he goes. But then posters started talking about doors opening only for ivy grads and and I got a little freaked out on several levels. We'll stick with our critieria and priorities, as you did, and avoid getting caught up in someone else's.</p>
<p>ctnypa,</p>
<p>Uh, if you want to fight the unfairness of elite schools, it's fine with me. </p>
<p>Clearly, from the list of schools you have mentioned (Princeton, JHU) you/you son are planning an inside job. ;) I hope your ire towards "prestige"-school graduates & their grads' career advantages gets resolved in the next 4 years before your kid is one of them.</p>
<p>BTW my situation was much like your kid's is: one of my parents was an atty; both my parents went to State U (& paid their own way through, on the long haul plan.) Could be they were passed over here and there getting the interview, though I suspect that they felt pretty grateful that there was a State U for a poor kid to attend. I don't reall either of them wasting time worrying about who from Stanford or Harvard had it a little easier, because both felt lucky & priveleged nonetheless. </p>
<p>I'm not sure how far down the prestige list one must go before one could graduate free of the taint of elitism via 'reputation advantages'. For example, a Podunk-U grad probably gets cherry-picked over a CC grad. A CC grad would probably get the nod over a worthy, bright dropout... etc.</p>
<p>My point about hair splitting was this: an attorney complaining about the unfairness of an ivy grad's advantages in snaring job interviews is akin to griping 'you drive a fancier car than I do' while 95% of the world is walking. Plenty of people would consider all those with advanced degrees pretty elite. So you are a lot closer to the top of the scale than the bottom.</p>
<p>Though you claim no advantages to your Law degree, I suspect if we were both applying to work in law, you'd be interviewed <em>well</em> ahead of me. Which is fine with me; you earned that advantage; it wasn't handed to you.</p>
<p>I'll give up on trying to get you to connect the dots between "quality of education" and resultant prestige. Most schools that are generally regarded to offer a quality education willy nilly have prestige. Kids attending elite schools are regarded as intellecutally elite because elite schools can pick anyone they want and the general level is extremely high. Yes-- I completely agree there are schools with less prestige that are not yet on the national radar but offer excellent educations. My D applied to some of these too, where fit was excellent & school was less well-known. I would much rather she go to one of these schools than a higher-prestige place where she would not be happy.</p>
<p>Well, folks. Someone reported me to the moderators. It seems I have a bad attitude that is in need of moderation. Oh well, carry on.</p>
<p>This really isn't about values. There is a reality. I would be considering what my child wanted to do in life and where he might go to have the best chance of making that happen. </p>
<p>Not condsidering where doors will open is a foreign thought to me. Do you read the news about corporations learning to do more with fewer people? About myriad jobs heading overseas? We've just come out of a recession with little job growth. Reality.</p>
<p>CTPANYMom....Maybe I did not read the entire thread so am guilty on that count. But the last couple of pages I read indicated to me that many folks here, myself included, either themselves, or their children, ended up at some pretty selective schools for the experience itself...the match of that type of learning environment. They did not choose Ivy with "Ivy on the brain" and many did not come from some "lineage" or elite background or entitlement. (There are those out there that fit that profile, no doubt, at these schools). I don't think that everyone who chose to go to a top school did so with the thought of where it would lead next. I don't recall that thinking when I went to school and surely not with my own kids' thinking either. They wanted certain types of schools that fit the type of learner and person they are. </p>
<p>By the same token, some of us here are admitting that our degrees sometimes might have led to some opportunities. These opportunities could likely have been had even if we went some place else, who knows. I admit that the name of my school seemed to look good on my resume when starting out. I did not choose to go there for that reason but apparently the resume does seem to get a look see. </p>
<p>For my kids, the name or prestige of the college is not the ultimate thing. They really want to find ones that they like that fit what they want in a school. I know that while growing up, they worked hard and had this generalized goal of going on to a "good" college. I have shared here before that while my child got into Penn, when it came down to making her decision where to attend, she narrowed her admitted schools to three and two of them were not Ivy and did not include Penn. She liked things about two other schools considered lower on the ladder over Penn. She also could never relate to kids' posts on CC that seemed very very into Ivy or bust ways of thinking. Do I think her degree from Brown could be helpful in the future? I am sure it could be but that was not the motivation in choosing the school. My other child is applying to selective BFA programs. She is thinking of which one's program fits her best (she should only get into some and have a choice, lol). She also would like to go to a well regarded program. Striving for getting into one of the best schools you are capable of, is not a negative thing. It does not mean that her job prospects will be brighter. If she was meant to be a success, she will be regardless. Could a top school open doors in her field? That could happen. It might be an added benefit but does not drive the decision to attend. I think many want to attend a good school for the actual EXPERIENCE. </p>
<p>In any case, perhaps you are on the same page, I dunno. But I got the sense that you had a negative view of those who go to presitgious institutions. I don't want to have to apologize for where I went to school or have my kid frowned upon for going to a very selective college. Those schools fit their profile and what they desired in a school, like any kid picks a school. If it so happens that those schools open doors, maybe that will happen but that was not part of the college selection process. </p>
<p>But please don't knock those who go to elite colleges. Generalizations of who goes to such schools is like any other generalizations....does not fit all people. I think there are kids at my D's Ivy from all walks of life and from all over the world. While some come from privilege and some come from families who ONLY want Ivy, MANY do not. My kid is happy at her school and now that she is there, I can see how it feels like the perfect match. Anything that comes after college....we'll see what happens but for now, this was a good choice for her to go to this school. The choice of college is not necessarily related to "success later in life" etc. A fine education will serve someone well. Where they got it is not necessarily the end all and be all. Anyone can be successful. Certain schools, however, fit certain kids. My child would not be happy at a school that was too easy or where kids were not that motivated, and so forth. So, the "ticket to success" is not the main factor in picking a college. That does not mean that there is no truth to the fact that sometimes there ARE opportunities that open up when you come from such places but that is just an added benefit. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>I don't think it makes sense to fight the fact that an elite degree on one's resume may open a few doors. From the standpoint of a hypothetical corporate recruiter, an undergrad degree from an ultraselective school indicates a strong probability of several conditions:
1) The applicant was in the top tier of high school grads, based on some combination of superb academics and personal accomplishments. (Or possibly he/she was an oustanding athlete who turned down a free ride elsewhere.)
2) The applicant experienced a reasonably rigorous undergrad program in the company of very bright peers.
3) If the applicant is being evaluated for a position that involves dealing with clients/customers, the elite pedigree will be something the company can market to them.</p>
<p>In no way does this imply that a grad from, say, a decent state or private school is any less qualified. However, if the applicant comes from such a school the recruiter is going to have to work harder to analyze his/her academic accomplishments, because those schools admit less selectively and may have less rigorous curriculum options. To the extent that academic prowess is important to the firm's recruiting criteria, going with an ultra-elite grad makes life easier: the recruiter can begin with the assumption that the applicant is fairly bright and is at least a bit worldly, and then focus on personal presentation, chemistry with the hiring managers, and specific skills.</p>
<p>Having said that, I think the "elite edge" is overrated in most career areas, and any advantage tends to decline over time (as it should). The salary surveys I've seen don't seem to demonstrate a powerful earnings benefit, particularly when normalized for the quality of the incoming student. I'd never advise a student to go to a college because of its name and perceived prestige, but I'd certainly consider the name recognition a legitimate plus if the school was a good fit otherwise.</p>
<p>(OT) Nedad, I hope your mom is doing better. </p>
<p>I went through the same long distance situation with my 90 y/o grandmother four years ago when she broke her hip. The dementia thing is rough, and it took my dad (who was there) and me (I'm in another state) completely by surprise. Our biggest fear was that she'd stay like that, but it WAS temporary, and it was a result of the strong drugs they had her on during that first week. </p>
<p>I recall one nurse rather abruptly telling me that it was <em>typical</em> for elderly patients to respond this way to meds, like I was supposed to know that already, and I should just pipe down and let them over-medicate her. Well, it wasn't typical for my grandmother, who if she'd been in her proper state of mind, would have worn this nurse's a$$ for a hat. So, I called the nurses' station every day after that to check up on her. :)</p>
<p>Eight weeks after she fell, she was getting around with a walker. ::Slugghuggs:: to you, your mom, and the rest of your family.</p>
<p>Probably obvious advice, nedad, but sometimes elderly people are seeing 6 specialists and no one comprehensive gerentologist oversees them. Noone is coordinating meds, everyone just concerned with their specialty area (heart, diabetes, or whatever.)</p>
<p>This happened to my grandmother; she was really tuning out, weak, disoriented; when she finally saw a generalist it wound up she needed a simple thyroid medication. She returned to her normal mental self and lived another 5 years.</p>
<p>Department of FWIW: No one "reported" anyone. While one Mod has primary responsibility for the Parents Forum, some of us range over the whole board and hence read here, and virtually all of us read the Parents Forum recreationally. It sure beats reading posts like "I have a 1590 SAT, should I re-take?"</p>
<p>Statistically, the Parents Forum is probably the worst place push an attitude because every Mod reads at least some of the threads. It's like a hold-up man hitting the all-night doughnut shop where the cops hang out.</p>
<p><<statistically, the="" parents="" forum="" is="" probably="" worst="" place="" push="" an="" attitude="" because="" every="" mod="" reads="" at="" least="" some="" of="" threads.="" it's="" like="" a="" hold-up="" man="" hitting="" all-night="" doughnut="" shop="" where="" cops="" hang="" out.="">></statistically,></p>
<p>I take great offense to being compared to a "hold-up man." I don't think posting on a message board is anything like using a gun to hold up a donut shop.</p>
<p><<man." i="" don't="" think="">></man."></p>
<p>;)</p>
<p>I second the cking with the nurse's station. HIPPA rules might limit the info, over worked nurses might not have the time. But, the hospital needs to know you are there and care. If/when pt goes to Skilled nursing facility (SNF) for rehab, the pt's meds must be reviewed by a pharmacist. Of course this review only needs to be done monthly and the pharmacist might have been there the day before your relative was admitted. Ask the nurse there if you can talk with the pharmacist for med review. The physician at the SNF might be different than the one at the acute care hospital and that might be different than the regular physician. Good luck.</p>
<p>(OT) Nedad, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your mother. We are running into elderly mom issues as well. H is going to check on his mother who is not getting over the flu as she should have. She really needs someone to come in and help a few times a week but she is adament not to have anyone. Has fired everyone H has arranged to work. I can see a tough run coming up with her as she is stubborn and already incapable of doing all the things necessary to live independently, but refuses help.</p>