The subtext of nearly everything on College Confidential...

Parent Cafe
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<p>ctnjpamom,</p>

<p>Do you feel entitled to certain advantages because you have a Law Degree? I would imagine so, and deservedly. </p>

<p>An advantage that accrues from an educational accomplishment is an EARNED advantage. Sure, if someone coasts because their family is rich, or cheats their way to a prestige degree, this would obviously not be right... But if doors open because someone plain ol' worked their butt off in HS and college, what is so wrong with that? I am not sure why this bugs you soooo much.</p>

<p>Obviously you have a very negative picture of an "Ivy Grad," something along the lines of spoiled, entitled, & arrogant. But CT-NJ-PA (& MA, NY, etc) <em>employers</em> largely take a different view. If a bunch of spoiled rotten entitled Ivy brats perpetually got hired, this view would change... So far it hasn't. Thus the Ivy degree must have proved to be a decent screening tool.</p>

<p>Yes, there are jerks in any population and Ivy colleges have their share. But mostly there are extremely hard-working kids, the polar opposite of entitled slackers.</p>

62

<p><<do you="" feel="" entitled="" to="" certain="" advantages="" because="" have="" a="" law="" degree?="" i="" would="" imagine="" so,="" and="" deservedly.="">></do></p>

<p>Well, first of all, no I don't. If there are advantages, I'm not sure what they are.
But the question really should be - "do you feel entitled to certain advantages b/c you have a HY law degree as opposed to State law degree?" (which I don't so it's hypothetical) You're really making the point I was trying to make.</p>

<p><<an advantage="" that="" accrues="" from="" an="" educational="" accomplishment="" is="" earned="" advantage.="">></an></p>

<p>But, is it more of an accomplishment to graduate from an ivy than from another college? Or is it just a better decal?</p>

<p><<sure, if="" someone="" coasts="" because="" their="" family="" is="" rich,="" or="" cheats="" way="" to="" a="" prestige="" degree,="" this="" would="" obviously="" not="" be="" right...="" but="" doors="" open="" plain="" ol'="" worked="" butt="" off="" in="" hs="" and="" college,="" what="" so="" wrong="" with="" that?="" i="" am="" sure="" why="" bugs="" you="" soooo="" much.="">></sure,></p>

<p>It's the attitude that bugs me. </p>

<p><<obviously you="" have="" a="" very="" negative="" picture="" of="" an="" "ivy="" grad,"="" something="" along="" the="" lines="" spoiled,="" entitled,="" &="" arrogant.="">></obviously></p>

<p>I think you're taking liberty with my words. </p>

<p><<but ct-nj-pa="" (&="" ma,="" ny,="" etc)="" employers="" largely="" take="" a="" different="" view.="" if="" bunch="" of="" spoiled="" rotten="" entitled="" ivy="" brats="" perpetually="" got="" hired,="" this="" view="" would="" change...="" so="" far="" it="" hasn't.="" thus="" the="" degree="" must="" have="" proved="" to="" be="" decent="" screening="" tool.="">></but></p>

<p>"Screening tool"??? Screening who out? Oh, you mean the other 90% of hardworking, high achieving high school kids who don't get into ivies? Or do you mean the rest of us who were never even in a position to apply?</p>

63

<p>nedad--hoping for the best for your mom. My dad had some serious health problems involving surgery and recuperation over Thanksgiving and Christmas. He spent some time in a skilled nursing center but is now back home (living by himself in San Diego 500 miles from where we live, which is hard). The crisis seems to be over (and my stomach doesn't hurt anymore), but you know, he is just so frail now. He was never frail before. One comment he made--"growing old is not for wimps."</p>

64

<p>ctnjpa,</p>

<p>It is you, and not I, who are classifying people by their college degree. You use words like "prestigiously cocky" and "entitlement." You contrast Ivy grads with "people who open their own doors." You state that "Ivy grad" has lots of other connotations outside 'accomplished & smart.' You ascribe "attitude" to people who graduate from Ivy colleges. Wow, you are one angry person.</p>

<p>You classify me as a jerk, because I stated the obvious: Ivy degrees open doors, and they open doors precisely because ivy degrees are, usually, awarded to smart and hardworking kids. NOBODY said there aren't plenty of other smart & hardworking kids; nobody said this way a fair or wonderful thing. That's your defensiveness, not my elitism. </p>

<p>You have not a clue about me, who I am or what I believe, but you are happy to attack me just because I admit to having been favored in employment interviews due to my college's name. Basically, then, there is no way to be an Ivy grad and not earn your scorn. Seems a little unfair to me.</p>

<p>As to whether or not it is "more of an accomplishment" to graduate from an Ivy: I would be the first person to argue that if a kid with every economic & educational advantage graduates from an Ivy it is not as big an accomplishment as when another kid with everything stacked against him graduates from a much less well-known school. Certainly there are highly accomplished and very impressive kids all over, at all sorts of schools. My goodness, one of my son's classmates is blind. I would say that <em>any</em> degree from <em>any</em> school, given what he is up against each moment of each day, would outweigh the accomplisments of most Ivy grads.</p>

<p>Your reaction to the term "screening tool" is way out of context with the earlier discussion of the "getting the interview" advantages of the "name" degree. Nedad, alumother, & I were all simply stating that <em>employers do this,</em> they clearly do screen by where you got your degree. We were merely identifying an actual advantage to the "decal." Your anger attests that you recognize the truth of what we say, and resent that it is true. Perhaps that is perfectly justified. But don't blame the messengers!</p>

<p>We hardly invented that system, nor do we assert that it results in anything approaching total fairness. It is basically a shortcut taken by employers, and others. Obviously a more accurate way to pick the best employees would be let everyone come work for two or three weeks and then decide who is best for the job, but this isn't what most businesses do. </p>

<p>Many posters on this board have "name" degrees and many do not. Everyone has a great deal to offer us all. Respectful dialog on the merits should be what we all seek here. If someone states the truth let's not attack just because we don't like that it is true.</p>

65

<p>ctnjpamom, you are not really being totally fair to sbmom. Back in the 1970s, Brown was the Ivy league door mat and going there was not that special. she did it herself, not because of Brown, which was like getting into wash U today.</p>

66

<p>gee mensa, .... er,.... thanks?</p>

67

<p>ummm, I think that came out a little wrong after looking at it now...</p>

68

<p><<wow, you="" are="" one="" angry="" person.="">></wow,></p>

<p>Nah, just bored. If I were angry, I would have been banned already. </p>

<p><<you classify="" me="" as="" a="" jerk,="" because="" i="" stated="" the="" obvious:="" ivy="" degrees="" open="" doors,="" and="" they="" doors="" precisely="" are,="" usually,="" awarded="" to="" smart="" hardworking="" kids.="" nobody="" said="" there="" aren't="" plenty="" of="" other="" &="" kids;="" this="" way="" fair="" or="" wonderful="" thing.="" that's="" your="" defensiveness,="" not="" my="" elitism.="">></you></p>

<p>I think elitism is a pretty good word to describe it. You seem confused. See, if you agree that there are "plenty of other smart and hardworking kids" who don't attend ivies but who are screened out by employers, and you acknowledge that's not fair - but you still want that advantage for yourself and your child, it's hard not to view that as an elitist attitude. </p>

<p><<you have="" not="" a="" clue="" about="" me,="" who="" i="" am="" or="" what="" believe,="" but="" you="" are="" happy="" to="" attack="" me="" just="" because="" admit="" having="" been="" favored="" in="" employment="" interviews="" due="" my="" college's="" name.="" basically,="" then,="" there="" is="" no="" way="" be="" an="" ivy="" grad="" and="" earn="" your="" scorn.="" seems="" little="" unfair="" me.="">></you></p>

<p>So, it's okay if life's unfair but only if it's unfair to other people? </p>

<p><<we were="" merely="" identifying="" an="" actual="" advantage="" to="" the="" "decal."="" your="" anger="" attests="" that="" you="" recognize="" truth="" of="" what="" we="" say,="" and="" resent="" it="" is="" true.="" perhaps="" perfectly="" justified.="" but="" don't="" blame="" messengers!="">></we></p>

<p>I'm not angry. </p>

<p><<we hardly="" invented="" that="" system,="" nor="" do="" we="" assert="" it="" results="" in="" anything="" approaching="" total="" fairness.="" is="" basically="" a="" shortcut="" taken="" by="" employers,="" and="" others.=""></we></p>

<p>I think you are overstating your case. Anyway, who is "we" and why do you feel you need other posters as backup for your opinion?</p>

<p><<many posters="" on="" this="" board="" have="" "name"="" degrees="" and="" many="" do="" not.="" everyone="" has="" a="" great="" deal="" to="" offer="" us="" all.="" respectful="" dialog="" the="" merits="" should="" be="" what="" we="" all="" seek="" here.="" if="" someone="" states="" truth="" let's="" not="" attack="" just="" because="" don't="" like="" that="" it="" is="" true.="">></many></p>

<p>How about let's not lecture other adults about how to post, kay? And your "truth" is not my truth.</p>

69

<p>Nobody's truth is anybody else's truth. It's the Heisenberg principle - if you can measure it you will break it. Or it's the philosophical debate of the past couple of centuries - how do we know the sun will rise each morning? So then we all default to what we feel, in the absence of a cognitive absolute. Ctnjpamom you do sound angry, to me, for what it's worth. Now you may have every right to be angry but don't be mean if you can help it, life is too, too short. Who knows, maybe your child will marry SBMom's child, or mine, or who knows?</p>

70

<p>I suppose, then, that if your child was admitted to any "prestigious" school, you'd suggest he/she turn it down, and find something as unimpressive as possible, to back up all your lofty principles about fairness? </p>

<p>Where I come from "life's not fair" was a lesson we were taught in our grammar school years. Sad that some people are still stuck on it in adulthood. And if you, a lawyer, are lecturing about fairness vs. Ivy League entitlements, you are truly splitting hairs. </p>

<p>It isn't exactly fair that you and I got full meals tonight and so many others worldwide go hungry. (I don't suppose you are fasting in solidarity or protest.) It isn't fair that some of us, as children, are loved and encouraged, while others are hit or neglected (I don't suppose you wear a hair shirt?) Lots of things are not fair. But we don't blame people who seek love, or eat their fill, for the reality that others are hungry or abused. Why then blast people for climbing as high as they can educationally? Life's gross unfairness basically puts you, me, (and anyone else with leisure time, electricity, and a computer) way, way on the upside, worldwide. You okay with that?</p>

<p>I am fully cognizant of the advantages I have (mostly earned, but some, via good parents & luck, unearned) and I am grateful for my life. Others have lots more than I-- but I don't lose sleep over them. I lose more sleep over those who have much less. </p>

<p>I want my kids to have happy, healthy, productive lives; I want them to get the best educations that they can, to have the best opportunities they can have, with lots of choices, to find a path that is right for them & improve the world. I think most parents feel the same. Hopefully, no matter where they wind up, my kids will have contentment, and a sense that they are in charge of their own destiny. I root for everyone's kids to get the best out of life that they can.</p>

71

<p>I think the tenor of this discussion has illustrated the ambivalence of society as a whole toward the quest for status, even though some individuals hold viewpoints more polarized than ambivalent.</p>

72

<p>
[quote]
I want my kids to have happy, healthy, productive lives; I want them to get the best educations that they can, to have the best opportunities they can have, with lots of choices, to find a path that is right for them & improve the world. I think most parents feel the same.

[/quote]
SBmom, I'm with you on this and can't imagine anyone who is a caring parent not feeling this way - decals or no decals. Seriously.</p>

73

<p><<now you="" may="" have="" every="" right="" to="" be="" angry="" but="" don't="" mean="" if="" can="" help="" it,="" life="" is="" too,="" too="" short.="">></now></p>

<p>I'm neither angry nor mean. </p>

<p><<who knows,="" maybe="" your="" child="" will="" marry="" sbmom's="" child,="" or="" mine,="" who="" knows?="">></who></p>

<p>uhhh. Maybe that's what I'm afraid of.
haha That's a joke, not a reflection of anger nor meannness.</p>

74

<p>ctnjpamom,</p>

<p>You know things are not going well when you have to explain the intent of your jokes. lol</p>

75

<p>There does seem to be a great deal of defensiveness and resentment that attaches to this topic. I did not go to an Ivy-league school. Still, Ivy league schools tend to be our off-hand way of relating to this or that schools value/esteem: Duke, Mich, Berkeley, Hopkins etc., though most selective schools tend to see themselves as being as good as, or better than, this or that Ivy—they generally know that they are better than the unheralded schools planted across the country. </p>

<p>It is common to hear a UMich grad compare their football program with Ohio State; but, I have never heard a UMich grad compare the quality of their education with Ohio State (that’s generally a given), instead we call UMich “the Harvard of the Midwest.”</p>

<p>Of course, the majority of the people in this country do not sweat the status of their school. They will go to the good school in their state, or a community college/trade school. They will probably not be posting things in College Confidential and their children will not likely re-take their SAT/ACT if they are unhappy with their first score.</p>

<p>However, if you are posting in College Confidential you do care about these things apropos, defensiveness v resentment, or simple contentment.
It seems far too CLEVER to me to post in CC and act as if you do not care about the quality of a particular school and the perception of that quality.</p>

<p>I’m with SBmom on this one; there are objective factors involved in college selection and college selectivity; many kids in community colleges across the country understood this when the selectivity of their state college was too high for their academic accomplishments and they attended their local community college to get their grades up in order to attend their state school in a year or two.</p>

<p>College selectivity is as real as college selection, either one can be somewhat off the mark, but they are the dominant objective standard by which we understand or choices.</p>

<p>On the other hand, many kids make very unique choices, at times with almost no reference to status. They should be applauded.......and wished the best of luck. Sometimes, those very same kids will end up choosing a school that is in the Ivy league.........they should be applauded for this choice too.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
<<but ct-nj-pa="" (&="" ma,="" ny,="" etc)="" employers="" largely="" take="" a="" different="" view.="" if="" bunch="" of="" spoiled="" rotten="" entitled="" ivy="" brats="" perpetually="" got="" hired,="" this="" view="" would="" change...="" so="" far="" it="" hasn't.="" thus="" the="" degree="" must="" have="" proved="" to="" be="" decent="" screening="" tool.="">></but></p>

<p>"Screening tool"??? Screening who out? Oh, you mean the other 90% of hardworking, high achieving high school kids who don't get into ivies? Or do you mean the rest of us who were never even in a position to apply?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For me this gets to the heart of the never ending CC "discussions" about the IVY league. In my experience in hiring situations the reality is that going to prestigous schools (IVY or otherwise) is a big advantage in the job market in certain situations ... because the odds your application is reviewed is higher ... when reviewed you're on your own with your merits but more prestiguous schools certainly get resumes reviewed more often. There were two major themes to the hiring practices in most hiring situations in which I have been involved. </p>

<p>First, for lower level jobs that generally did not lead to leadership positions hires were made locally ... candidates are not flown in ... and recent job performance is most important and local colleges are probably an advantage (for example, a known "OK" local school over a unknown top tier LAC from the other side of the country). This is not a grand strategy but just the natural outcome of a hiring process using junior HR reps and management that was hired locally and promoted in their function ... these people are using their knowledge base and conducting an relatively inexpensive job search (including having contacts at other local firms to use as references). When I had an opening for a job requiring a BA/BS and 4-5 years work we had, including internet submissions, almost 1000 applicants ... the screening folks used the simpliest screening rules to get to 25-50 resumes they actually would read ... this process led to all local hires.</p>

<p>However, when going for higher level jobs the process was almost exactly opposite. For example, in my last hiring situations, the marketing group liked to hire young associates right out of B-School ... they did not have an unlimited budget or an unlimited amount of time to fill an opening so they were limited to about 5-10 B-Schools. Given limited trips and interview slots it is natural for companies to go where there is the highest concentration of top candidates ... most companies would rather see 15 recent Harvard MBAs than 15 recent UNH MBAs (my fmaily is a heavy UNH family so I'm OK going here) ... the odds of finding a top candidate are higher. Once again not a grand strategy but companies maximizing their use of limited resources ... and for top jobs it takes them to top schools ... and to look at people who attended top schools.</p>

<p>Are there great candidates at UNH, undoubtably ... it is probably also true that a higher percentage of Harvard students are great candidates. Once in the room each candidate is own their own ... but going to better school increases the odds you get a chance to show yourself.</p>

<p>The second thing that doesn't ring true for me is the idea that the folks at the IVYs are all the kids of the rich or something. There certainly are a lot of kids that are at least the kids of the middle class (see Mini's entitlement index) but that doesn't make us all a Kennedy or a Bush. I am the kid of a rising middle class family ... I was also the first kid on either sode of the fmaily to go to any school other than a NH state school ... I was far from a child of the elite ... and I had plenty of friends who were similar.</p>

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<p><<i suppose,="" then,="" that="" if="" your="" child="" was="" admitted="" to="" any="" "prestigious"="" school,="" you'd="" suggest="" he="" she="" turn="" it="" down,="" and="" find="" something="" as="" unimpressive="" possible,="" back="" up="" all="" lofty="" principles="" about="" fairness?="">></i></p><i suppose,="" then,="" that="" if="" your="" child="" was="" admitted="" to="" any="" "prestigious"="" school,="" you'd="" suggest="" he="" she="" turn="" it="" down,="" and="" find="" something="" as="" unimpressive="" possible,="" back="" up="" all="" lofty="" principles="" about="" fairness?="">

<p>I think that your definition of "unimpressive" is probably vastly different than mine. One college we are considering isn't even listed on CC!!! Horrors!! But I do think it would be a good fit for my son, that he would get a top notch education there and it's free to boot. So, we have discussed whether an ivy league education is worth $160,000 in debt vs. a free ride but we discussed it in terms of educational quality and even campuses, but not in terms of opening doors to jobs or car decals. I guess I had my priorities mixed up. I shouldn't have been thinking "where will my son get the best education?" but rather "which decal is more impressive?" and "where will his degree open doors for him?" I didn't realize that was what is important. </p>

<p><<where i="" come="" from="" "life's="" not="" fair"="" was="" a="" lesson="" we="" were="" taught="" in="" our="" grammar="" school="" years.="" sad="" that="" some="" people="" are="" still="" stuck="" on="" it="" adulthood.="">></where></p>

<p>I don't think it's sad at all. I think some of the greatest strides in law and society have been spurred by a sense of basic unfairness. </p>

<p><<and if="" you,="" a="" lawyer,="" are="" lecturing="" about="" fairness="" vs.="" ivy="" league="" entitlements,="" you="" truly="" splitting="" hairs.="">></and></p>

<p>You lost me on that one. Are you saying being a lawyer is unfair or that the law itself is unfair or that lawyers are entitled or what?</p>
</i>

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<p>NeDad...my thoughts are with you as you deal with your parent's health issues and everything related. </p>

<p>CTNJPAMom...I am wondering if you are knocking those who go to top colleges. Are you saying if your child got into one, you would not let him/her go? I also am thinking that you are characterizing all who attend an elite college with a broad stroke as "entitled kids, kids of privilege and connections, etc. etc." While certainly some of the student body might consist of such kids, clearly not nearly all fit that assumption. There are many who earn admission into very selective schools due to hard work and strength of accomplishments and not just what family they came from. I can't see knocking kids just cause they go to a very selective school. Nobody says these kids are better than the next kid who went to a less selective school. Kids can be successful no matter which college they go to. It is the person themselves who works toward a successful life, not which school they came from. Top schools might be a jump start to certain things and and they might not be. </p>

<p>I would not assume that all who go to elite colleges are from families of privilege and with expectations of Ivy decals or some lineage to that affect. I am not into broad generalizations about groups of people. Just like that generalization is not true, the same would go with some generalization that kids in lesser schools are not smart or have less career prospects. Of course, THAT is not true either. </p>

<p>In fact, opinions such as the ones you hold, are what make me sometimes go out of my way to not admit my colleges or graduate school names. It is like I should not mention them because someone might think something else about me in terms of some elitism. I should not have to feel embarrassed for where I went.</p>

<p>My parents did not have elite college expectations of us kids growing up. However, my parents did value education. And surely, my opportunities were better than a kid growing up in a ghetto with parents who did not value this or pay for college. But where I went to college was my own doing. My dad went to Temple. My mom only went two years to college, at NYU. My oldest brother went to Brown. Yeah, my parents were proud but it is not like he came from some elite lineage or prep school or any of that. My other brother was not as good a student and went to Univ. of Hartford. I went to Tufts. I did end up at graduate school at Harvard. There, I said it, I admitted it. I don't want to apologize for it. I'm not better than the next guy. I liked the school, I was living in Cambridge married at the time and I got in, so I went. I only applied to two graduate schools, Harvard and BU as I needed to stay in Boston and I chose Harvard when I got in. And like others are saying, as it turned out, when I moved to VT after getting my graduate degree, I do think that the name of Harvard on my resume got me some interviews. I was able to be an adjunct at some colleges while in my 20s, rather young, and I think having that degree on my resume, likely got me some interviews, though I don't think the degree would have stood out as much if I had lived in Boston where they are a dime a dozen. I don't think my degree got the job. I think I got the job. I did not go to that school to open doors. I went there because I liked the program and I was a very good student and craved challenging learning environments. I am not rich. I am not even in a field that makes much money either. </p>

<p>Now one of my kids happens to be at an Ivy, Brown. She did not have Ivy as her goal. She created a list of challenging colleges that met her criteria. She preferred some schools over some Ivies. She had trouble deciding where to attend in April but lots of factors came together for her at Brown so she chose it. She earned her way in by doing things growing up, not by any privilege, other than she does have educated parents and we have been very supportive parents of her pursuits. She did not go to a prep school on her way "up". She is on financial aid. We have massive loans. Now, let me say that she has met many kids at college who DO come from privilege. So be it. It certainly is NOT all of them. All types of kids can land in a very selective college. I don't think you can paint them with one broad brush stroke. They are not better. They simply fit the profile for that kind of school. I think if someone strives for a top college, it is not a crime. It does not necessarily wreak of elitism. </p>

<p>While I agree there ARE elite attitudes out there (just read some student posts here that are "Ivy or bust" nature...."can I get into an Ivy?"), I don't think everyone who lands in a very selective college has elitism attitudes. I don't think we need to frown upon those who happen to go to selective colleges. Just like I would not frown upon some really great great kids at state colleges. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

79

<p>Does quality of education enter in to this? Does the desire to be among a high concentration of the most brilliant and accomplished of your peers, not for potential career networking purposes but for personal growth? How about the opportunity to take courses from professors known to be leaders in their field?</p>

<p>I'm not saying this is only available from "elite" schools, but I do think the emphasis on future social/career/financial advantages in this thread reduces the motives of those seeking admission to "status" schools unfairly represents the motives of most of the aspirants to these coveted places.</p>

80

<p>CTNJPAmom...did not see your last post when I posted above but please do not assume that those who have gone to selective colleges did so with the thought of that school "opening doors" or having better career or grad school prospects. I know NONE of that entered my D's decision making. She picked, like YOUR son is doing, the schools that best fit her college criteria which had nothing to do with the above points. She indeed wanted a challenging learning environment but never thought about it being a stepping stone to some other opportunity. </p>

<p>I realize there are posts on CC of those who do see having to have the best college name in order to get to X thing afterwards but not everyone picks a college for that reason. There are some who do go to very selective colleges for the educational experience itself and not necessarily where it will lead them next. Really, it is OK to go to a very selective school. I don't think it should be knocked. </p>

<p>By the same token, it might make sense in your situation to take the free ride at the state school or wherever that offer was made. My child got such an offer as well but we let her go to the college that she felt really matched what she was looking for and that other college did not in several respects. These are family decisions and you should do what works for you. Your child will be a success no matter where he goes. That should not enter into it. The school should fit him. If he goes with the more so called "elite" school because it is a better match, so be it. If you decide to save money, that is also a good decision. </p>

<p>Susan</p>