But those are just as likely to be outliers as anything. You certainly can’t assume that anecdotal evidence like that is representative of the Asian American cohort on the whole.
Not assuming anything about As-Ams; I’ve defended their strengths and bemoaned the way they refer to their group(s.) I find nothing wrong with tennis, violin, research, and Saturday Chinese school. Nor with an essay about granddad immigrating. As long as it’s made relevant to a college app review at a highly competitive college.
From a college’s point of view, “holistic” considerations (in addition to the determiniation if the student is intellectually and academically capable of getting a degree) appear to be these; 1) What will the student add to our campus / community during their 4 years? Will they be an “ambassador” to the college by participating in groups that have contact with people outside of campus. Will they volunteer? Will they happily interact with students / faculty? 2) Will the student continue to “give back” to the college through tangible ($), and intangible (general promotion of their affiliation with that college) means after graduating. Students with outstanding “stats” who are not admitted, are typically viewed as not oustanding in the above mentioned areas. My opinions are based on 30 years working in high school pupil support & having a D attend an Ivy league college.
Don Betterton, former Princeton admissions officer, basically said the same thing a few years ago:
There are 2 admissions processes at top colleges:
One for “tagged” applicants.
One for “untagged” applicants.
http://www.manhassetsca.org/HighSchool/articles2010-11/DonBettertonpresentation2011.05.17.pdf
(Slide #8)
I think too much of the attention is on the kids but in reality it is a parenting issue and not certainly every parent is at fault. This grooming for Stanford, MIT, Caltech and the Ivy League schools minus Cornell starts way before high school. In my area we have 4 STEM public high schools, one of which is normally ranked in the top ten of all high schools in the country. All of middle school is dedicated to getting in those schools. In certain communities the kids are vacuumed into this process of nothing but school for years and years.
This phenomen is also seen in Catholic schools though it is not nearly the same. Virtually every parent of a kid in Catholic high school wants to see that kid in a Notre Dame, BC, Georgetown or Holy Cross sweatshirt.
So while the kids are part of it, let’s talk parents.
I have many Asian friends that as time goes by seem to understand that high school and college are more complicated than name recognition and status.
It still is a major problem in my opinion and in the end the child suffers, quietly most of the time.
I think what’s most notable about the article in the first post of this thread is what the author doesn’t say. She doesn’t say that there was a ceiling on the number of Asians at either college, or that she was ever told to limit the number of Asians, or that there was any policy that was designed to limit the number of Asians. As often happens in these discussions, she mixes up the issues of affirmative action for URMs and the possibility of bias against Asians in favor of whites. At best, she suggests that stereotyping and personal bias–plus other facts, such as the fact that few Asians have hooks–could be depressing Asian admissions. She supports holistic admissions in general.
In other words, this isn’t the smoking gun people have been looking for.
This is what I was talking about in another thread that ended–there is nothing wrong with these things–but they do not constitute the best strategy for achieving admission to the most selective schools, because they do not differentiate the applicant from thousands of others with very similar activities.
@Hunt And therein lies the problem, differentiation is not seen as important in traditional Asian culture.
The ways a kid can distinguish himself from others can be surprisingly small efforts. Or some perspective in the essay and written answers. Relevant perspective, that is. You don’t have to switch to flute.
I think the Betterton presentation kind of tells it all. Unless you are either Tagged or are genuinely special, you are not a 14 or whatever his top student ranking is … regardless of what your parents believe or what your school tells you or what your ego says.
There are too many almost great kids for all of them to be guaranteed a spot at a top 20 university. All the almost great kids could to apply and may have a shot
… and certainly, from a life-long perspective working hard in HS, ECs, learning to write a great essay, studying for a high stakes test with … vocab, basic math, volunteer work - all at a high level … the journey has it’s own rewards. If you can discover your muse, and maybe just your high school muse, in high school and really shine at something … I think you are likely really going to be successful in life.
Certainly no one short of a 14 (national prizes !) should not be looking at safety and match schools, so say 21-40 or even 60, and if merit aid is important look for that too (although merit aid is often harder than HYPS admit).
I don’t think that everyone with 2400 on a rather prosaic test should think they are guaranteed anything.
I don’t think everyone who thinks they worked hard in HS either.
I am not sure what is fair to whom. The upper middle class is being cut out of top 20 schools by another factor - exorbitant cost. Disadvantaged folks should get a step up. Recent immigrants want to make it to the top in 1st generation. Schools want to provide grade A athletics. They want to be need blind. They don’t want everyone playing the violin as their hobby. They seem to want internationals, maybe just as a full pay, but maybe because their test scores are high, or maybe these internationals are also well 14s (recent guy who got into Harvard after winning top Russian prize, etc). We have the hooks, but how else can you build a multi-billion $ endowment (and obviously the alumni want the status quo or they would fun merit scholarships or the like).
I think I am special too … but maybe not a 14.
Right. And pointing out the potential impact of cultural norms is not the same thing as stereotyping. I suspect that the Amish are very much underrepresented at Ivy League colleges. Why might that be?
@lookingforward you keep insisting that “all the data is out there”, but none of us seem to be able to find the % acceptance by race/tag, median SAT scores and GPA by race/tag info. Why don’t you point us to exactly where this data is available?
Colleges have no motivation to release data on % acceptance by race. First, for the highly selective colleges using affirmative action for URMs, the data would almost certainly show that URMs are accepted at higher rates with lower scores–simply adding more ammunition for people who don’t like affirmative action. Second, Asians are already convinced that they are getting admitted at lower rates with higher scores than white applicants are. This is probably true. Why should colleges provide this information, which would simply push them to have to explain all the other reasons this might be true aside from bias? If you can’t show bias–which the stats will never be enough to do–what have you gained?
I said, “…can’t even slot themselves by the data that IS available.” Not that all of it anyone could want is out there. 2nd time you suggested something I didn’t say.
My question is how any of this would be truly helpful.
How would you compare the Asian lacrosse standout with the Latina Intel winner and the WASP legacy poet? Frankly, any kid whose profile fits a group with enough demographic weight to constitute its own category is probably in trouble from the get-go. Harvard has enough kids from the Boston suburbs with 4.0’s, 2250+ SATs, positions in student government and/or the school newspaper and a couple of years of varsity sports that it’s going to be hard to impress without something else to add. The same is true of Asian applicants. A 4.0 and stellar SATs are not enough to ensure admission at any of the top schools, and in my opinion that’s as it should be.
I always wonder, why are students so angsty to change the admissions processes that created the environments/student bodies they’re so rabid to join?
I would like to point out that in an article on the Harvard Crimson, it breaks down the applicants by race. Harvard also releases the percentage of Hispanics, Asians, Blacks, etc. that make up their admitted class every year, so by using these two articles, you could actually calculate the acceptance rate of each race or ethnicity. The numbers won’t be exactly perfect because the stats Harvard provides are based off of admitted students, not accepted, but considering Harvard’s high yield rate, I am sure the figures would be pretty close.
https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2015/2/6/admissions-applications-2019-record-high/
Here are the links you would need to use to calculate acceptance rates of a certain race. NOTE: You have to do a little math based off info given.
Just a little math, H629. Thx.
I found this IECA list helpful:
https://www.iecaonline.com/PDF/IECA_CollegeTop12List.pdf
http://www.iecaonline.com/pdf/IECA_CollegeTop12-More-Important-Less-Important-Criteria.pdf
Grades, curricular strength and test scores are just the tip of the iceberg.
Admissions should not be race blind. It’s sad to see adults have that kind of childish thinking (and it’s usually over represented people that think this way). What ever happened to being exposed to a DIVERSE environment. When I go to college, I want to meet Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, multi-raced, Australians, Africans etc. Who the hell would WANT to go to an un-diverse school? Maybe it’s because I belong to an ACTUAL culture that appreciates OTHER cultures just as equally.
But this tea bomb tho.
I suspect those may need some explanation, RD, but good.
“Holistic” Admissions are just racist. White/Asian kids can work as hard as they want for chicken-scratch, but lo and behold a URM comes in with middling ACTs and grades and gets a full ride.