The Uneven Student

<p>How do you handle the application process with a student who is very strong in some areas, but mid-range or lower in others? Math is D's strong point -- she placed into AP Calc BC as a junior, and AP stats as well. Placed into AP US, but is struggling to maintain a B. Other courses are honors and she is getting As and Bs, except for Italian, where she again struggles in the regular level. Only PSATs so far: strong math and writing, mediocre English (though she will have a tutor and retake). GPA unweighted 3.5, weighted 4.2. </p>

<p>She doesn't want to go into engineering/technical--her perfect major would be something like theoretical math and philosophy. She's a head-in-the-clouds kind of kid. Though obviously very bright, she doesn't really engage with day-to-day issues (e.g. politics, current events are Greek to her). Does best in smaller classes; her math teachers say she's a creative thinker (may or may not be a good thing--depends on the teacher). Not sure where to begin in terms of putting together a college list. Does she have a chance at places like Barnard (her first choice as of now--we live near NY and she loves the campus)? Proximity to home not necessary; she likes the mid-Atlantic and Northeast as far as Boston, might be interested in the midwest or west as well.</p>

<p>Good questions, and best wishes for your D! There are more kids like her than you think, and colleges will be thoughtful in reviewing her app.</p>

<p>Making a good list is really important for kids like this. I recommend searching CC for “lopsided” kids (also includes GPA/test score mismatches). There are great threads for kids with a “3.X” GPA, with many options, and a thread from last year on “under 3.6 and getting into top schools.” </p>

<p>Your D will have an edge in admissions because her strengths lie in typically “male” areas. Schools like Johns Hopkins and other top “math” schools generally are fighting a male applicant overload, so that will work in her favor.</p>

<p>Schools like Barnard have taken kids with her GPA - although she’s going to need very good test scores. Schools that are a tick down in selectivity will also give your D some wonderful options. If she’s willing to go all-women’s (good for her - so many girls completely discount these schools), it’s a bit easier to get into Smith, Mt. Holyoke, etc. She might like Swarthmore (which has many connections with Haverford, so a 2-for-1).</p>

<p>UChicago is good at looking holistically at the student and will see her strengths without expecting her to be perfect in everything (although with their core curriculum she will have to study all of the subjects she might not enjoy). </p>

<p>Macalester College in St. Paul is known for small classes, understanding the lopsided student, and having wonderful options.</p>

<p>This is a wonderful start. Thanks so much for the thoughtful answer.</p>

<p>Is there a list somewhere of colleges with the “core curriculum?” That would NOT be appealing to her, although I wouldn’t count it out if she loves the place otherwise.</p>

<p>I also believe any small school will review the entire application. Some of the larger ones (and, I hear, the tippy-top ones) have to do at least a first cut strictly by the numbers (GPA, SAT). Your daughter’s strengths will shine through and, really, what you consider her weaknesses are not bad at all. (Keep in mind all of the kids who would be thrilled with a B.)</p>

<p>I can’t offer much help with respect to a college list–I really admire the more theoretical brains but that was so not me. For some reason I’m thinking of schools like Oberlin, maybe Kenyon, maybe Reed? OTOH, DS#1 is a philosophy major at one of the CTCL schools–I think a number of Tier 2 LACs would be thrilled to have your daughter (and tend to be pretty good with the merit aid).</p>

<p>Oberlin and Kenyon are on the list. What is CTCL schools? Is there a list of Tier 2 LACs I could look at?</p>

<p>Here is her current list (this includes some big reaches, too).</p>

<p>Barnard
Brandeis
Cornell?
JHU?
Kenyon
McGill
U Mich
NYU
Northwestern
Oberlin
Penn
Rice
Skidmore (Their brochure title was, “Do you have a creative mind?”)
Smith
Tufts
Wellesley</p>

<p>I think LACs will fit her learning style better than larger universities. Swarthmore and the like will be out of reach with her GPA, but there are many great schools she can get accepted to. Women’s colleges could be a very good choice if she is ok with the idea.</p>

<p>I’d add to your list Vassar, Bates, Beloit, Mt. Holyoke, possibly Bowdoin, and remove Cornell, JHU, Pen and NW.</p>

<p>CTLC = colleges that change lives
<a href=“http://www.ctcl.org%5B/url%5D”>www.ctcl.org</a></p>

<p>I think EmmyBet was thinking about Bryn Mawr rather than Swarthmore.</p>

<p>She didn’t mind Barnard–of course there are thousands of men right across the street. Not sure what she would think of the others, but we will take a look. </p>

<p>Forgot to mention that she is Hispanic (one parent), fwiw. She also has one great EC-- ice skating, has competed nationally–and a few regular ones (school plays, ballroom dancing).</p>

<p>Good luck to your D. My son is globally gifted but I can certainly relate to the abstract/head in the clouds personality. He’s a math major- pure, not applied, of course. Took a few philosophy courses. Started with either math or physics as a potential major- definitely would have gone for theoretical not experimental physics if he had chosen that over math. He ended up at our good flagship U.</p>

<p>Perhaps your D should consider places like MIT for its high level math although many choose it for the tech aspects. As a girl she is a wanted student in math. Being female, Hispanic and good in math- wow. Being half Asian and male was not helpful to my son- too many…</p>

<p>Look at the U News… rankings of math grad programs for ideas on where various colleges fit. She probably should aim for schools higher on that list. Those schools would give her the best undergrad math background, with the opportunity to take grad level math courses as an undergrad. There should also be more diversity in their undergrad math offerings. Many tend to be the large public U’s which may not be to your D’s advantage. But looking at where various schools fit in the math arena is helpful in optimizing her math interests.</p>

<p>Math and philosophy interests go together.</p>

<p>Friend’s S who is now a freshman in college was a lopsided student–good GPA because he worked hard, but SAT scores were very strong in math and not so much in CR and W. (high 700s in math, low 600s in CR) He was interested in pre-med–subject of essays, etc. He applied to a lot of schools, because he just wasn’t sure which schools might take him. So it was interesting to me to see his admissions results.</p>

<p>He got into every school to which he applied that had a 30% or higher acceptance rate. At schools with an under 30% acceptance rate, he was in the top quartile for math and in the bottom quartile for CR SAT scores. Of those schools, he was uniformly rejected–except for the ones that were known for science or big pre-med populations.</p>

<p>WL at Washington U in SL (22% acceptance rate) and happily attending Tufts (26% acceptance rate) !</p>

<p>My advice would be to prep to get as high a CR as she is able (sounds like the math will take care of itself). Focus on finding schools in the above 30% acceptance rate that your D would like to attend–these are important–they would be her match and safety schools. Also apply to reach schools (looking for ones that have a math and science reputation).</p>

<p>Good luck–with the lopsided student, it’s a wild ride because you just don’t know how each school will deal with the issue.</p>

<p>I’m not sure what you mean by “strong” scores in math. If your D is truly gifted in math, try to get her to take some of the national tests–AMC,AIME, USAMTS, Mandelbrot, etc. She should also take the SAT II in math and the AP tests for both BC calc and stats. Has she participated in things like ARML? Is she on math team?</p>

<p>If she pulls off 800s on SAT math and math2c with 5s on AP stats and BC Calc, she’ll do fine in admissions. If she has some outside math stuff, she’ll do even better.</p>

<p>She has only taken PSATs to date (she is a sophomore) – mid 700s in math. She will take the Math SAT 2 this spring, and the AP tests for BC Calc/Stats as a junior. She is not at all interested in math team/math contests. Her ECs are all things like theater, ballroom dancing, ice skating (placed 4th in Nationals/synchronized, now working on ice dancing and will compete pro-am). </p>

<p>She sounds like Wis75’s son–dreamy! Wis75, what is U News? And where is your son–sounds like the kind of place she might like!</p>

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<p>Bryn Mawr, Swathmore, and Haverford are all co-op and it may include UPenn as well.</p>

<p>The math contests are usually half day tests. FORCE her to take them. It’s not a big deal. It’s just one more test. Reality is that good scores on these tests will boost her odds of getting into top colleges. It’s well worth the small time investment. </p>

<p>Princeton has an ice dancing team. I’m not recommending Princeton for her, but if it does, I’m sure other schools do too and she should check out those that do since her EC might help her get in. (And Princeton’s app used to ask for your AMC, AIME scores; I don’t know if it still does.)</p>

<p>Frankly, I can’t figure out why she’s interested in Barnard. It doesn’t match what you say her interests are.</p>

<p>Seriously, if she can pull off mid 700s as a sophomore and is nationally ranked in ice skating, she can be more ambitious. </p>

<p>If a year or two down the line she’s sure she wants to continue to ice skate/ice dance, that may be the key to putting together a good college list.</p>

<p>Thanks, Jonri. Princeton’s team is recreational and privately funded, it’s a fun extra but I don’t think they care terribly. Same with Vassar and Brown. Michigan and Wisconsin-Madison are serious skating schools, so her background might carry weight there. </p>

<p>Why Barnard? Who understands the teenage mind? Seriously, her grandmother went there so I think she’s been brainwashed since birth :)</p>

<p>There are lots of kids with that profile and they get into lots of well known colleges. Her EC and ethnicity will be a big help. My younger son had the opposite profile - high verbal scores, medium math scores, low B’s in Chem, Latin and various sorts of B’s in English (but an A senior year!), mostly B+s in Math. I don’t think anyone on CC would have thought his grades were good enough for either Tufts or U of Chicago, but he was accepted at both. Both schools look at more than grades. I believe he had excellent teacher recommendations (even from a Math teacher who understood why his grades weren’t as high as some others in the class.) Both Tufts and Chicago have some quirky essays in their supplements which I think enabled him to shine. His regular Common App essays were pretty good too.</p>

<p>I agree about the math contests. You don’t have to study for them (though it probably helps!) They are just half a day during school hours (at least that’s the way it works at our school) - she should do the AMC 10 or 12 and if she qualifies the AIME. They aren’t time consuming, but they really show math ability beyond what the SAT can show.</p>

<p>Math/philosophy makes me think Chicago, but there may be other better choices. She’s only a sophomore, plenty of time for her to do her research! At the end of it she may still like Barnard best - I know at that age I was dying to live in NYC. I ended up doing in grad school not undergrad, but I remember that was one of my top considerations.</p>

<p>

They are, but only Bryn Mawr and Haverford have close interactions. Transportation between Swarthmore and Bryn Mawr/Haverford is so hugely inconvenient that it deters most students from ever taking a class on the other campus.</p>

<p>I suspect it’s the other way around. Precisely because they are fun teams and don’t give scholarships. the fun teams don’t attract the serious skaters. So, her skating skills are more likely to make her stand out in the pack at Princeton, Vassar or Brown than at Michigan and Wisconsin. And if she isn’t a star student, keeping up with the demands of a serious sport in college could be overwhelming.</p>

<p>She’ll do fine. Again, definitely have her take the math tests.</p>

<p>Thanks to all! Jonri, ooh, devious! She would definitely stand out on Princeton’s team.</p>

<p>Adding Chicago to the list…thank you!</p>

<p>Correct MD Mom to all four.
But the discussion noted openness to woman’s colleges, and Haverford is very close to Bryn Mawr with heavy cross-registration between them. Swarthmore not so close, with significantly less cross-registration. This from visiting Swarthmore and Haverford and listening to admissions people at both.</p>