@theloniusmonk There’s a long history of Reed and the USNews. The fundamental difference between Reed’s and the USNews approach to evaluation of the program is that Reed focuses on the educational process and outcomes rather than on inputs (the GPA’s and test scores, class ranks, etc., of applicants).
Data on future PhD’s earned is a good illustration of how good a job Reed does in training people for careers across the major academic disciplines. With its common core curriculum (key focus on deep dives in its Humanities sequences by all students), and a strong research focus in upper level courses coupled with requirement for all students to complete a major research project (senior thesis), Reed aims to prepare students for careers in applied research in biological and physical sciences as well as social sciences and humanities. By and large these are not goals that the USNews gives much attention to.
“If these questions aren’t answered, what good is the Social Mobility Index?”
You’ll have to ask US News that, the UCs and CSUs have always been about giving opportunities to low-income CA kids. They’ve been doing this since their inception, probably before US News was even out. If one of your goals is to provide social mobility, you’re going to do a lot better than colleges whose mission is not social mobility (any of the private selective colleges in US News top 100 (U or LAC) but who are going to try because of US News.
US News coming up with this social mobility index could be seen as rewarding these schools or a way to mix up the rankings, or maybe both.
Certainly not the entire Bay Area. Money matters too. Even in a so-called “wealthy” town (whatever that means around here), a good number of D19’s classmates chose instate publics over higher ranked OOS colleges they got into. The rankings are definitely not unimportant, but it there is more at play. There is not quite the same heavy emphasis on engineering/compsci you mention however, so perhaps other factors (major? maybe demographics, judging by some other cc threads about parental pressure and ranked colleges?) are at play too.
There are not many towns where the median income is well into the “private college no financial aid zone”, so it is likely that even in the “wealthy towns”, many of the families are considering cost and value when choosing a UC or CSU versus an out-of-state public at out-of-state list price.
Around my neighborhood in NorCal, the local public and private HS send anywhere from a 1/3 to 1/2 OOS of every class. And then add about another 10% to CA private schools, like USC, Stanford, Santa Clara, etc. For whatever reason, there’s no doubt a lot of local parents and students are not choosing CC’s, UC’s or CSU’s.
We’ve watched our kids rise from 35 to 23 in national LAC over the last 6 years and that’s nice. It’s a great little school that few on our coast know anything about so the higher it gets the less we have to look at blank faces when we answer the “where do your kids go” question lol. Otherwise, I’m not sure it matters that much.
I wasn’t talking proportions, I was talking specific people choosing a cheaper instate public vs a higher-ranked high cost out of state. I haven’t bothered adding up D19’s school, much less find out what the local private is up to, though in my recollection at least half her class was headed OOS. But the point was simply that rankings do not completely dominate college choice as suggested by some others…at least not in every town around here. (A lot of kids at D19’s school have parents who are alumni of Cal, Stanford and ivies too, fwiw.) I think the point ucbalmunus made about not always finding value in paying the high EFC many local families face is a very valid one in terms of decisions, especially when families may have say 3 kids to send to college in quick succession. On the opposite end, there are only a handful attending CCs, all afaik planning to transfer into UCs later.
If students don’t have enough financial aid, they end up behind or late in payments. The result may be a hold on their registration for classes. This, in turn, makes it difficult for students to register for all the classes they need to graduate on time if some classes are difficult to get into or not offered every semester. If a college or university doesn’t delay registration for the next semester due to late payments, that could help financially struggling students.
Any time a student has extra stress due to financial stress, it puts their academics at risk. Sub standard housing can lead to problems completing school work. Extra commute time for students living at home or in less convenient off campus housing limits student’s time to study. And, of course, any time a student is working significant hours in order to pay college tuition or for room/board, they are at an academic disadvantage in comparison to students with more moderate work hours. So, adequate financial aid to limit housing and food stress would help lower income students graduate on time.
"For whatever reason, there’s no doubt a lot of local parents and students are not choosing CC’s, UC’s or CSU’s. "
Is that one high school? That seems odd, I’m aware of a few high schools where the data shows that the top-10 colleges are all public schools or CCs. The data for the state is overwhelminglyin-state pubic colleges. In 2018, there were about 420K high school graduates, there are 38K as freshman in UCs, 107K in CSUs and 250K in community colleges, putting the in-state percentage at 94%. Even if my numbers are a little off, and say the number is 90%, that’s a huge number that stay in state for public colleges.
[/I do love looking at the list for Best Undergraduate Teaching. Boy it seems more people should use that list when looking for schools. Isn’t that what’s most important?]
No
@Iglooo It’s pretty ridiculous to say Stanford is “much” harder to get into than the schools listed about them. They all have less than 7% acceptance rate.
I feel there are certain schools whose public perception transcend the rankings. For example, even though Princeton is ranked .#1 I feel most people have Harvard, Stanford, and Yale perpetually viewed higher. I would even argue most view MIT higher. Then Princeton. Even though Columbia moved up to a tie for 3rd I think public perception would still have below the aforementioned schools but above all the others. Duke is a little further down but I believe public perception views it higher. I think University of Chi never gets viewed universally as highly as it’s lofty ranking every year.
The number of apps went down this year for UCs. So it’s not just in the NorCal area that there has been a decline…
I do not know if the Cal States went through the same drop in applications. I know that my brother who has two kids approaching college age tells me that parents he knows are looking at out of state options if their kids do not get into certain in state schools. The suitcase, regional, commuter issue at a number of the Cal States are not what a lot of students and families want, is what he says.
The accept rate at the most desirable state schools are still not that high despite a drop in the number of applications. My one friend in California has one kid at Gonzaga and the other at Arizona. With merit money, the cost is close to what they would have paid at a state school in Ca. They preferred the atmosphere better where they are. I don’t know if they applied to any of their state schools.
The population of college aged kids is dropping so that is another reason for this decrease in the number of applications.
Also, though Berkeley and UCLA are well known, the other CAState schools do not have strong name recognition despite their impress rankings and ratings. Something always a puzzle to me. I don’t know one single kid outside of CA who has gone to any of the state schools other than LA and Berkeley. I get it with thevSUNY schools as the do not have the rankings and ratings but all those fine CA universities lack is name recognition.
In my kid’s school, every once in a while someone will be admitted to Stanford, like one in about 10 years. On the other hand, there will be at least one every year in other highly ranked schools. That, I call much harder. To rank Stanford the same as with Brown USNews is losing its credibility in my mind.
There was a decline in applications in last year’s class for Fall 2019. I wonder if an increase in births in 2000 because of the “Year of the Dragon” had anything to do with UC applications peaking in Fall of 2018? Will be interesting to see if applications continue to decline for the Fall 2020 class?
I think the UCs are great. Heck the state is bigger than most countries, they deserve good choices.
However, when I see the posted gpas listed one does wonder if it is the gpa for the unique two year soph/JR gpa they use. Many students gpas take a hit first and last year for various reasons. I like the approach but perhaps a bit overstated.
Also, for the poster concerned about Stanford being number six but it’s harder to gain acceptance than the others 1 to 5. Admissions rates aren’t part of the process. There are many schools more challenging to gain acceptance to than others ranked higher throughout the top 100. Especially for certain majors and instate vs oos comparisons. Especially the private schools versus some of the public schools.
The ranking combined with all the others. Forbes wsj niche poets and quants for b schools and the rest taken in their totality give you a directional sense of quality.
Then there is the all important reality check of gaining acceptance to any of these schools.
The rankings also remind me as I’m perusing the list that there are so many great schools in our country.
One last observation, is that I can’t ever recall thinking that the AT Top 40 actually represented the best songs or the Memorial Day 500 greatest hits had the right order. Many of the best but the order is so subjective. Pretty much the same with any ranking lists. Depends on the personal criteria and tastes.
But I generally didn’t equate my self worth or personal parental excellence/gene pool with any of those, I guess.
@ShanFerg3 – “I feel there are certain schools whose public perception transcend the rankings. For example, even though Princeton is ranked .#1 I feel most people have Harvard, Stanford, and Yale perpetually viewed higher. I would even argue most view MIT higher. Then Princeton.”
Well, here’s the rankings of “Dream Colleges” by “public perception,” i.e., students and parents’s perception:
The schools students most named as their “dream college” were:
Stanford University
Harvard College
Princeton University
New York University
University of California—Los Angeles
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Columbia University
University of Pennsylvania
Yale University
University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
The schools parents most named as their “dream college” for their children were: