<p>Here is something to think about. Animals aren't conscious in the sense we are. A vast majority don't realize they are being grown to be slaughtered, and don't realize death until they are being slaughtered. However when we imagine it, we inject human abilities. We imagine it as if we were slaves. But the majority of the pain for us comes from our fear and imagination.</p>
<p>There's a quote I really like by Jeremy Bentham, an 18th century utilitarian ethicist, "the question is not, can they reason? nor, do they talk? but rather, do they suffer?" </p>
<p>As i explained in my super-long-post-of-doom on page 12, I believe in the principle of equal consideration of interests (interests being based on a creature's ability to feel pain/experience pleasure). That is to say, the interests of animals and humans should be weighted equally in making ethical decisions. That doesn't mean those interests are the same, or that there aren't things that would affect one party more than the other. Human beings would be more adversely affected by slaughterhouses than animals because they'd know going in what was going to happen to them, and it would cause a lot of fear, anxiety, etc. However, the door swings both ways. There are times when a lack of consciousness/sense of the past and future actually causes more pain. If a human being is imprisoned, we can tell them that they will not be harmed and will be released in due time, and this will probably alievate their anxiety over the situation. When an animal is imprisoned, they may suffer the same type of anxiety indefinitely, having no way to know what is going to happen to them.</p>
<p>Here's some research by an Oregon State University animal science professor to dispute vegangirl's evidence/claim.</p>
<p>"Critics like Steven Davis, professor of animal science at Oregon State University, argues that the number of wild animals killed in crop production is greater than those killed in ruminant-pasture production. Whenever a tractor goes through a field to plow, disc, cultivate, apply fertilizer and/or pesticide, and harvest, animals are killed. [29] Davis gives a small sampling of field animals in the U. S. that are threatened by intensive crop production, such as: opossum, rock dove, house sparrow, European starling, black rat, Norway rat, house mouse, Chukar, grey partridge, ring-necked pheasant, wild turkey, cottontail rabbit, gray-tailed vole, and numerous species of amphibians. In one small example, an alfalfa harvest caused a 50% decline in the gray-tailed vole population. According to Davis, if all of the cropland in the U. S. were used to produce crops for a vegan diet, it is estimated that around 1.8 billion animals would be killed annually."</p>
<p>God bless wikipedia, eh? At least I think that's where that article comes from. It looks really familiar.</p>
<p>Anyway, I didn't dispute the maddox argument. I've heard that thing way too many times to pay much attention to it anymore. Yes, growing crops kills animals. Slaughterhouses kill more animals. Simple as that. If we could reduce the number of animals being killed in the US each year as a result of our dietary habits to 1.8 billion, that would be absolutely fantastic. As it is now, about 9 billion animals are killed in the US for food each year.</p>
<p>All statistics are relative...9 billion isn't overwhelming when you consider that humans are generally one of the least populated species on this planet.</p>
<p>I hate debating with statistics for this very reason. People just nitpick at what they mean and don't mean and you get nowhere. My point was not how big or small of a number 9 billion is, just that it's larger than 1.8 billion.</p>
<p>but anyway, this is why I prefer just explaining what my ethical views are. I find it much more meaningful to the whole "why are you vegetarian" issue than stats could ever be. That's just my personal opinion, though. </p>
<p>man am i sleepy right now. /random.</p>
<p>go veg...yay :D</p>
<p>evil
READ THIS:</p>
<p>"if all of the cropland in the U. S. were used to produce crops for a vegan diet, it is estimated that around 1.8 billion animals would be killed annually."</p>
<p>so much land is used to produce feed for the cows, pigs, and other animals. maybe someone forgot to tell mr. Steven Davis that these animals need to be fed. they dont get all round and tasty eating nothing. a lot of agricultural land is used to grow corn and other crops to be used as animal fodder. also these cows require space to live. add the two and you have one of the leading causes of deforestation. which in turn is the reason why many species of animals are being pushed to the brink of extinction. orangutans in indonesia, tigers in india, golden lion tamarins in the amazon...</p>
<p>apparently thousands of wild animals are killed by people who keep cattle:
take the situation in the australian outback where thousands of dingoes and emus are shot or worse trapped in steel jaw traps to prevent them from damaging/killing sheep and sheep enclosures.</p>
<p>as for you sagar:</p>
<p>"But the majority of the pain for us comes from our fear and imagination."</p>
<p>you can see the fear in the eyes of those poor animals who standing in pools of blood watch their 'family' being slaughtered while awaiting a gruesome death. contrary to what people like to believe, most animals that we slaughter and eat are very friendly and inquisitive...the have a complex range of emotions:</p>
<p>ever seen a mother cow trying to protect her calf, not let anyone come near it. or maybe a dog whining and nuzzling the body of its dead young. my neighbor's cat "cried" for 8 continous hours when one of her 5 kittens died. she refusd to let him bury the body for three whole days, licking it and trying to revive it. also did you know that pigs are one of the smartest animals. they are very curious and have a sharp memory.</p>
<p>saying that they are dull inspid creatures meant to be eaten is an INSULT to them and to animal lovers around the globe.</p>
<p>O_O Wow you guys are serious about this. I just eat meat because I love how it tastes. Have you ever been to Sal & Carvo's before?!</p>
<p>no. and i never will.</p>
<p>a ravin hurt and vegan girl, I am so glad to find people who agree that it is unethincal to kill animals. Go vegetarians/vegans!! ( and this doesn't include people who eat chicken or seafood, or eat meat occasionally)</p>
<p>thanx alright then. :)
it feels nice to know that you arent alone...isnt it? :D</p>
<p>We're forgetting here that being a vegetarian or vegan is a personal choice. The argument that a solitary vegetarian is not making an impact on the ethical issues they are protesting by not eating meat is irrelevant, because the only thing that matters is that the objector knows that he or she is not making a personal contribution to things that they find unethical.</p>
<p>I'm a vegetarian for my own ethical reasons. I know that by not eating meat, I personally am not contributing to things that I see as unethical, inefficient and waste-producing. And when people challenge me, I just say it's for health reasons and leave it at that. Because no matter what some pompous-a$$ Uncle Eddy can say about your ethical foundation, it's indisputable that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat-based diet.</p>
<p>This thread is getting preachy, and it doesn't need to be. It's one thing for meateaters to understand the reasons vegetarians choose not to eat meat, but another thing to try to convince them to choose a vegetarian diet for themselves.</p>
<p>"saying that they are dull inspid creatures meant to be eaten is an INSULT to them and to animal lovers around the globe."</p>
<p>Good job putting words in my mouth. I never said they were "dull inspid creatures." Sadly, some animals are smarter than some humans... </p>
<p>I'm a vegetarian 95% of the time(I'm indian). I know the health benefits, etc. I promise you right now that a good homemade indian vegetarian meal still has tons of carbohydrates, butter, etc. If I would be vegetarian I would be eating a purely indian diet, so I could have some actual taste in my life. </p>
<p>Its the same thing as in the holocaust. You take a group of people into a room, telling them they will be showered, and gas them. As long as the other people who will be gased don't see this, they won't panic. NOTE: I DO NOT support the holocaust in any way or form, because I know you guys are just waiting to jump on me for that.</p>
<p>There's this really awesome vegetarian/vegan restaurant in Denver (where I live). They even serve vegan cheesecake (yum!). I'm trying to convince my friends we should go there for dinner before prom. :)</p>
<p>I am an athelete who needs the protein to maintain my build. I don't eat red meat, but that's only because I don't like the taste. I eat tons of chicken and other poultry. I have no ethical reasons at all against eating animals. I will eat them because I want to and I see nothing wrong with it. </p>
<p>Militant veganism is more annoying than forceful-christians.</p>
<p>Well, I haven't read all 14 pages, just the first.</p>
<p>But the reasons I'm a vegetarian is that, well, I've always been a vegetarian. I've been one my whole life and I've never had meat that I've ever noticed (although I'm sure I've eaten lard in something by accident, etc.)</p>
<p>Personally I think it is unethical for me to eat an animal...I don't see the difference between a calf and my pet cat, because they're both animals. Also, I really cannot imagine eating meat--I'm sure I would get really really sick anyway, so it's not too appealing to me. People will often say to me "Oh, I know you'll crack one day" like I'm just dying for a juicy burger, but for me, it's not the case. I have it a lot easier than some other vegetarians, because I have no temptation to eat meat. Also I live in Seattle and basically each group at my school has a few vegetarians, it's not an "alternative only" thing or a big deal.</p>
<p>Just mentioning something you guys havent argued about yet--</p>
<p>My parents run a 5,000 acre cattle ranch with about 400 black angus beef cows. What would we do--and large populations of the rest of the dakotas, montana, wyoming, nebraska. kansas--if meat consumption dropped dramatically due to everyone in the US becoming vegetarian?? And don't say raise food crops, its far too dry and hilly out here for grains, all we can manage to grow is enough hay to feed our cattle.</p>
<p>Meat isn't just what you get at the supermarket--for millions of people, its their business, their market, their lives. I'm an animal science/pre-vet major and plan to make working in the food animal industry a large part of my life. I respect vegetarians for their choices, although I disagree with their distorted facts and figures, and am just curious for their opinions...</p>
<p>I don't personally like meat, but it's not because I'm a vegetarian or anything. I just think most meat is icky.
My parents own a farm, but we're not large scale or anything... and we raise animals for meat...
If you read up on some of the stuff about what they feed animals, you will never want to eat meat again. NDcountrygirl - out of curiosity, what do you guys feed them? I'd like to hear it from someone who actually has first hand experience with the whole cattle raising thing, instead of some psycho who managed to get a book published... although, the stuff they sell at the local mill has some pretty nasty stuff in it.
If people want to be vegetarian, that's their choice... it's not really affecting anyone. Unless, maybe, half of the nation became vegetarian. Yeah, then some people's livlihood might be affected...</p>