@MichaelCShort I fully get what you are saying in this post and I agree it’s important as you put it. I emphasize similar points when I write LORs. How did the student do in my class beyond the transcript? What do I know about their personality overall? Why do I think they are likely to succeed?
My only quibble is “undecided” being the worst advice. For our area, it’s finances that need to be highly considered so the worst advice remains, “don’t worry about the finances, just apply and something will work out.”
This is consolation for those of us whose children are applying to the same schools as their parents and may get rejected despite legacy status and high stats.
If this is the advice given, it’s certainly the worst possible. But I’ve never heard it myself, nor have I ever seen it given on CC. On CC, it’s actually always the opposite: “Have you run the NPC to make sure the college is affordable?” It’s a good advice and affordability should always be the first consideration for most families.
I don’t know who’s giving the advice or if it just comes naturally, but it’s the #1 thing I need to address when talking with kids about college and I see many students say similar things here. It’s why responses on here direct to NPC’s.
If one knows their parents can and are willing to be full pay, then one doesn’t have to worry about finances. That’s very rare in our area.
There are a shocking number of parents who don’t discuss their finances with their children. How many times do we see posts here from students who have been accepted but now can’t afford to go to their dream college?
I agree with @creekland that the “run the NPC” advice is so prevalent here because to many students and families don’t. Who is it that always says there is no “financial aid fairy”?
The financial aid piece, and not having a true safety are probably the biggest, and most costliest, mistakes we see every single year on CC.
@momofboiler1 I agree. I do think there is quite a bit of self-selection going on here, in terms of the parents using these forums. They are going to be a little more sophisticated in terms of the process than parents who aren’t educating themselves on the process (unless of course they hire a consultant or coach to do that for them). I’ve definitely seen comments in FB groups that suggest plenty of parents assume their child will get scholarships to cover the high costs of OOS or private institutions that are actually reach schools. All of that is probably exacerbated right now with everything being virtual (less information flow among local parents perhaps).
The reason why is that most students posting in the “College Search & Selection” and “What Are My Chances?” categories do not mention cost constraints. Only after other posters reply with “cost?”, “NPC?”, etc. do they seem to start thinking about that, and sometimes post that their parents told them “don’t worry about cost, we will figure it out after you get admitted somewhere”.
Perhaps more under the radar is that most posters on the forums seem to classify colleges as “reach”, “match”, “likely”, or “safety” only in terms of admission, ignoring cost. In reality, if a student needs a competitive merit scholarship to afford the college, it should be classified based on the scholarship (usually “reach” due to lack of information on how difficult competitive scholarships are to get) rather than admission.
While I don’t think it’s any of my kid’s business what my income or assets are, I do think it is vital that they know what we can afford as far as college and it’s always been clear to them what their options are. We live in a community where many people like to keep up with the Jones’ and my kids have often been wide eyed at that and I admit, I am somewhat frugal and we just don’t live high ont he hog like that. It is much worse with girls. Around sophomore year in hs I started to let them know very strongly that they will see the difference with some of those kids when it comes to college and they won’t be able to go to certain schools because at the end of the day the parents really don’t have the money that they act like they have. Sure enough, kids that got into much better schools than they ended up at, couldn’t attend because those schools don’t give money or they got merit at a lesser school. People can fake appearances but bottom line if you don’t have the money in the bank your kid you can’t send your kid to a college unless you want to go even deeper into debt and many already are so in debt they finally realize it’s not worth it for one big 10 school over another or another large school/elite school.
I hear it every year though, the kid who applies and gets into Yale, a town is so excited, but then the parent has to say sorry we just cannot afford it. Don’t set your kid up for that. If you know you cannot afford it, and it is not that easy to get full scholarships, then don’t have them apply. If you are honest at the beginning and tell them it’s unlikely you can afford it but if they get in they will have to find scholarships and it’s on them that’s a different story, blah blah.
The other thing I realize is too many people don’t take into consideration the other costs of college. It’s not just Room and Board. Some charge for health insurance if yours doesn’t meet certain criteria. That could be another 3k/year not listed on their COA page. Extra food, laundry, sorority or fraternity. I nearly had a coronary over 5k in sorority dues at my daughter’s school. The other daughter, same sorority different school wasn’t even 2k. Travel. Small remote towns expect travel to be crazy high for air and hotels hard to find also tend to be more pricy. Sporting events. A college with $60k tuition is more like $80k all in per year. People need to be 100% prepared and often are not.
The flip side though, if in a major that is high paying upon graduation and there are some that a job is virtually guaranteed, then the debt is really not an issue and people should consider that too.
Don’t know if it’s worse with girls. The girls often have peer pressure over low ticket items (but they weren’t in our budget) like the endless beauty products/clothes/the right boots and bag. The boys usually don’t care about that stuff- but what they see from their peers is MUCH more expensive- fancy sports equipment, a car for their 18th birthday, etc.
Which is worse- saying “No, we aren’t buying you a car but you are welcome to share my 12 year old Honda if I don’t need it for work or errands” or “No, I’m not paying $14 for a bottle of shampoo but if you want to share my Suave I’ll happily upgrade from the 88 cent bottle to the 1.29 conditioning bottle”?
There is no such thing as a job that is virtually guaranteed. My radiologist is in Mumbai-- the big Imaging Center where I go used to employee at least a dozen radiologists- they now have one on site for complicated consults, and the rest of the team works virtually in India. Who would have thought that medicine could be off-shored? Kids who entered college thinking that Oil and Gas were pretty much the safest industry around couldn’t have anticipated that a global slowdown due to a pandemic means reduction in energy use means cuts to the hiring targets in the energy industry.
Do not take on debt thinking that you’ve figured out a “guaranteed” job. There are no guarantees.
There are definitely no guaranteed jobs. But there are definitely kids who are go getters. Often these are the kids who work while in high school and don’t spend their money on frivolous stuff. It seems like these kids are the ones who are unlikely to get caught in the trap of excessive loans and debt.
Parents definitely create the groundwork by spending within their means or being frugal. Or, spending more than one has and going into debt. Kids watch and learn. Anyone regardless of income can spend more than they make.
It’s hard to pay for college for your kids. Kids should appreciate the investments their parents are making in their future.
Agree that a kid who has been hustling in fast food, mowing lawns, babysitting, etc. for spending money and savings while in HS understands that the “career fairy” doesn’t show up in your dorm senior year and bestow a job upon you.
And agree that parents model sensible financial behavior.
Taking on debt to finance a significant portion of the cost of one’s college isn’t generally a good idea for almost any student. There’re some exceptions, but the exceptions are rare. Even in those exceptions, it’s almost impossible to figure out whether the financial investment is good one, because few can be certain what part of their later successes is due to their college education itself.
Screening out colleges that aren’t financial fits should be the very first step for any applicant whose family is financially constrained at all.
@srparent15 I totally agree, people underestimate total costs. I saw in another group where a woman was asking if there were scholarships available to help cover college visits because she couldn’t afford to travel to the colleges where her son was applying; when people pointed out that she would be facing those same expenses if her child went to one of those far away colleges she got pretty salty. There are so many costs that people don’t consider.
Someone asked me “why would a kid looking at average colleges need to use College Confidential?” The most recent posts illustrate at least one reason why: because there are MANY top students who could get into HYPSM, but they can’t afford it. They need merit scholarships, or they want to get into very competitive Honors programs. Their applications have to be great.
Many otherwise well-informed people assume that top students are always looking at the most elite schools. Maybe a lot of them do, but not all of them. Many of those students, or their parents, simply can’t afford $73,000 a year. They may be donut hole families, or have other considerations, as the man I’ll mention below did.
There is a well known and long running thread here on CC by a dad whose D is a Hispanic hockey playing top student. He has a disabled child also, and has to keep money aside for her needs. I believe his D attended a prestigious prep school on a scholarship. She aimed high. She got into Princeton, along with many other schools.
She chose U of S Carolina with the McNair scholarship (if I recall) in the end, because that was the best way for the family to afford her education and for her to study what she wanted to. (If anyone can find the link to that post, please put it here.) He was totally committed to her attending college without going into debt. After weighing up all her options, she chose U of SC.
These students are not uncommon. Not all amazing students want to go to HYPSM. The most stellar students competing for Stamps or Coca Cola Scholarships need to ensure they have stand out applications, regardless of the college they apply to. A Stamps Scholar at U of Oregon is at least as impressive as anyone at Stanford, and maybe more so.
Yes, that’s the thread. I recommend it to all who are interested in how to build a list, to those who might need financial (merit-wise) practical strategies, or just to those who are interested in watching the process work from start to finish. I also think it’s interesting to see the evolution of the dad’s understanding as he gets deeper into it.
Setting an example to the kids is not the only result of parental spending habits. The parents who spend below their means will more likely be able to afford to put their kids through college, while those who spend their entire income and more will impose very low financial limits on their kids’ ability to choose or even attend college.
Exactly and to further that, not all care to go to those schools.
We had a girl a few years back get into MIT and ultimately went to Michigan State on a full ride. People were pretty rude asking why on earth anyone would pass up MIT for MSU. Well, there are a lot of reasons. Not everyone can afford it or maybe not everyone wants to spend all that money, or it could simply be about fit. Some prefer to be the big fish in the small pond as opposed to being the small fish in the big pond.
I have one kid in a top Honors program at a large public university. She didn’t care about applying to the Ivies or what others view as the elite schools. Then her twin is at an Ivy. She didn’t care so much about the Ivy but wanted the best program and at the place she liked the best. Ultimately there are huge differences I’ve seen. The one in the honors program is treated like a queen and the Ivy treats everyone the exact same. They don’t care, but for kids who have huge egos and are used to being treated like royalty at their high school or extra special, they better be able to put those egos to the side because they will not get that any longer at the Ivy or Elite as they’re no longer better than anyone there. One thing my daughter at the Ivy really likes though is that everyone is smart and that is not something she necessarily felt with her friend group or others she hung out with in hs other than of course her sister. So for that she loves it and her friends at the Ivy are not at all pretentious. But that’s not to say that there aren’t plenty who are, because there are as are the parents. But like anything, you find your own.
And no one should sell themselves short. Not being a kid that goes to an elite school doesn’t make you any less amazing. Trust me as someone who would never had any opportunity to go to any school like that, I don’t feel any less successful than any of my peers or fellow high school graduations because I was as average as it comes when it came to applying myself in high school. But I do consider myself a successful well-adjusted adult and happy.
I don’t care how frugal or cheap my kids think I am because it has enabled me to send them to any college of their choice and I know they are very appreciative of it and it is also teaching them fiscal responsibility when I give them a monthly allowance (as I view their job being to focus on school) which is like their paycheck. I was a little surprised though when my daughter yesterday showed me that they each keep track of what they spend each month to the penny to make sure they are able to live within their allowance. So maybe I’ve been a little overkill on showing them my cheapness as I also don’t want them to feel that they can never spend money on nice things either, as I am not so frugal that I don’t do that.