The Worst College Advice I've Ever Heard

Applying to College
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@MichaelCShort this is a thought provoking thread, but I honestly feel that your whole premise is based on an assumption that all students reading this are applying to HYPSM and perhaps Cal Tech and U Chicago for good measure.

Do all AOs at Stanford share your view that students must focus their application on showing their interest in a particular area of study? Isn’t the whole premise of the liberal arts education and a BA or BS that students are able to study what interests them and they have the ability (in general) to switch majors? Sure, having an intended major is fine, but I know so many students who aren’t entirely settled on a major, or who have several well-defined interests.

You have said here and elsewhere that a student is applying to be a student and that is what they should emphasize. Some students do emphasize that, but isn’t the mere fact that they are applying to college making it clear that yes, they are applying to study?

I’m not an admissions officer. However, enough of my students have been accepted to elite colleges for me to say that, in my experience, the students who are getting into those schools are the ones who are able to present themselves in a compelling way. None of them have ever written about (in their personal statement) what they intend to study. Indeed, the common app prompts are generalized and clearly meant for students to write about what matters to them. For some, that may be what they intend to study, but not for others.

I do think the students who have what it takes for the most elite schools are able to convey that in their application. I’m not sure it’s something that can be manufactured, though a student can certainly ensure that their app is showing the college that the applicant fits what they are looking for.

I agree with @srparent15 . I hope students reading this aren’t freaking out that they aren’t good enough to apply to college, elite or not.

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Here’s what Stanford says on its own website what it looks for in an applicant:

[quote] Academic Excellence

The primary criterion for admission to Stanford is academic excellence. We look for your preparation and potential to succeed. We expect you to challenge yourself throughout high school and to do very well…

Intellectual Vitality

We want to see your commitment, dedication and genuine interest in expanding your intellectual horizons; both in what you write about yourself and in what others write on your behalf. We want to see the kind of curiosity and enthusiasm that will allow you to spark a lively discussion in a freshman seminar and continue the conversation at a dinner table. We want to see the energy and depth of commitment you will bring to your endeavors, whether that means in a research lab, as part of a community organization, during a performance or on an athletic field. We want to see the initiative with which you seek out opportunities and expand your perspective.
…[/quote]

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I think many of the posts above are selectively reading into parts of @MichaelCShort ‘s lead post and subsequent responses, especially the part about being “undecided”. The point is college is the time to develop a student’s academic focus. While there are very few students who have laid out their entire career trajectory and actually carry out that plan with little to no deviation, affirmatively being undecided at this point in life so you can “find yourself” is a road that leads you to your parents’ basement as well as an unsuccessful application to selective colleges, not just T10. The point, whether it is addressed in the Common App essay and/or in supplements, is what the student is going to contribute as a scholar and how he/she is going to utilize the resources of the school to further that goal. There has to be some direction(s) and substantiation based on existing accomplishments and behavior.

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I think many people misunderstand- or choose to misinterpret the “parents basement” route.

My kids were the poster children for “undecided” except for my Physics major kid at MIT who lasted two days as a physics major (and MIT does not admit by major, and could not care less if you switch). They were all gainfully employed in career track jobs by the end of the summer after graduation (by choice- they got to pick their start dates, one had been awarded a fellowship and wanted to do that before starting work, could have started the day after graduation but opted not to).

There’s a LOT more that goes into living in mom’s basement besides needing or wanting to find yourself professionally/intellectually. I wish this trope would die… but it’s too convenient to blame 'being undecided" than actually figure out/help kids who GRADUATE with no direction (which is absolutely not the same as entering college undecided.)

As far as I can recall, none of my kids wrote essays that talked about “how I’m going to utilize the resources of the school”. Top schools KNOW what their resources are- they don’t need a bunch of 17 year old kids describing them. Intellectual curiosity can take many forms, and it doesn’t need to be couched as “I love mechanical engineering so I want to come to your school because you have a great department in mechanical engineering”. Better to write about how you took apart a microwave oven and couldn’t figure out how to put it back (i.e. NOT a pre-professional essay at all) and describe with humor and humility what the experience taught you. Even if you are applying undecided- and end up majoring in economics.

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I think several of you are missing MCS’s point. He is trying to increase the likelihood of his clients being accepted to colleges (especially highly competitive ones). One way to tip the scale in your favor is to show commitment to certain fields, programs, areas of study, etc. I think this “packaging” of students can be helpful but it doesn’t mean that a student without it has no chance at admissions, of course not. And no one is suggesting that you can’t switch majors once in college (it happens all the time).

Remember, you are telling and showing adcoms why you would be a great fit for their college and the more you can show depth and breadth of areas of study and future careers goals can only help your application.

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It seems natural that it’s much easier for an AO to digest an applicant that is straightforward ( has followed a path that leads to a likely major and has done some things in the area of interest). Does that mean that kids cannot be undecided? Not at all.
Like @ blossom who makes excellent points, my oldest is undecided but isn’t likely to wind up in anyone’s basement. Sometimes kids have multiple areas of interest all of which are strong. Some kids are great in every subject or are equal in a multitude. Some kids have lots of outside interests too which may be divergent. For them, it may be difficult to decide between STEM and liberal arts. Some kids ( shocking) are actually intellectual and want to learn more about every subject. Some would prefer to live in a library than eat. ( I have two of those). I think I even wrote an application once about attending an IVY because they had more libraries than any other school I had visited. ( I ended up going there and getting a Masters where I had a desk in the basement library-joy).
Sometimes on CC, I feel as though perceived slights make people bring up tangents and attack the messenger. The MCS message appears to be: knowing what you want in your education makes the application easier to read and therefore might increase your chances of acceptance. Nothing more or less.
I’ve spoken to my oldest about this, who has said they’ll likely make something up depending on the school and program. Then tie it back to activities. My kid recognizes that writing always involved some creative license.

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Lol. It’s more than your academic interests.

You’ll be part of a fuller community than just classes.

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“knowing what you want in your education” doesn’t mean shifting the Personal Statement to answer a different question: why this major? Or, what turns you on, intellectually?

Admission isn’t all about what you want to study. Growth, intellectual vitality, empowerment, etc, don’t all tie back to the classroom.

Be open to multiple perspectives.

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If they choose math or science, then they will be studying subjects that are both STEM and liberal arts.

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True, but they also have to find a program that can accommodate widely divergent interests. Many of the STEM programs of interest to my kid fall into schools of engineering and aren’t naturally combined with school of arts. I’m sure it will all work out. My younger one is more like to do pure STEM so that path seems to be an easier road.
I think most of the most interesting jobs are at the intersection of two various field so I might be the cause of some of the consternation. But my oldest really is almost laughably balanced in all subjects.

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@lookingforward I have no idea what you mean here. Actually, choosing a major ( at some point) means having an interest in the field. I think growth and intellectual vitality are inherent in every topic. Empowerment? Not sure where that fit in outside of politics or a particular bent ( SJW?). Not a word my kid would include in any application for sure.
I think the criteria which are important to a specific applicant will naturally fall out of any application. For example a kid who wants to do something globally will speak about that in some sense. If that’s what you are saying, apply without being specific to the major but by presenting yourself broadly as a person who is interested in X, Y and Z. Then I get what you are saying. I don’t necessarily agree as I think making it easier to for an AO to digest per MCS is wise.
As I mentioned previously, it really can be hard for kids who are interested in everything. They just love learning. And that’s trite to write about.
My kid will write all of the essays and figure out the best approach. I’m more of a bystander. I do recall writing my own applications decades ago and coming in more broadly. If I were an applicant today, I’d do the pinpoint approach. Who knows maybe my kid will end up writing esoteric essays on philosophy ( and that’s ok too) :slight_smile:

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Some students combine interests by taking out of major electives in their other field of interest. For example:

  • Civil engineering major taking some architecture courses.
  • Computer science major taking some art and design courses (useful in many contexts like designing user interfaces and games). Also, social sciences and creative writing for someone who really wants to write computer games.
  • Statistics or data science major taking courses in other subjects that statistics or data science is applied to.
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The real world is interdisciplinary. We know how to prevent (most) STD’s. That’s a medically known fact. But to ACTUALLY prevent STD’s, public health officials and physicians need to understand psychology, sociology, gender relations and identity, etc. We don’t yet know how to “cure” COVID, but for sure, there is more wrapped up in preventing it than just the science. It’s understanding everything else- politics, religion, psychology, family and power dynamics, economics, design, transportation patterns, etc.

It’s easy to look at the world through a high school kids eyes- biology is not art history is not literature.

But most of the world’s problems are solved by an interdisciplinary approach. And I know very few kids- even at the so-called “elite” colleges- who showed up with a unilateral set of interests/passions/expected path.

Look at obesity. The 'science" behind it (take in too many calories, burn off too few calories) is decades old. But any long-term solution (either for an individual or for a cohort) which is going to work requires a MUCH more nuanced approach than just “stop eating so much”.

Teenage pregnancy- is there anyone over the age of 12 (OK, 15 in some cultures or sub-cultures) who doesn’t know how babies are made and how to prevent an unwanted pregnancy? And yet- how many well-meaning and unsuccessful attempts have been made at preventing teen pregnancies?

Interdisciplinary. And if that means not getting in to Stanford because your application doesn’t exhibit a single focus- oh well, their loss.

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I’m in favor of naming your interests. Ime, that makes it easier to get into a kid’s mindset. Or thinking. (Or lack of thinking.) Then, ECs and the rest of the app/supp support this or not.

My ref to, eg, empowerment, is about how (elite) colleges view the experiences they offer. It’s not only about the classroom and/or professional training.

It doesn’t matter, imo, how colleges state the academic bar comes first. Of course, it does. But when you’ve got ten thousand+ 4.0, driven applicants, the filtering is more than academic strengths. It goes beyond that, to which kids will both affect and be affected by the community that forms on campus. Who will likely grow from this particular environment, not only in terms of specific studies. That’s more than “I want to study X.”

And the Personal Statement is an opportunity to reflect other sides of yourself. Not where you explain “why this major.”

Difference of opinion, based on my own experience.

Much is (sometimes) made of the fact that I don’t answer the question of what traits matter, beyond academic strengths and drives. I don’t, because too many kids are looking for formula. I’d like them to be smart enough, thoughtful enough, to dig deeper than academic offerings, to recognize the rest of what an elite hopes to find. And, how best to “show” this, not just “tell.”

If a college asks you to explain your interests, fine. Go for it. But use the PS to offer more than that.

Difference of opinion and experience.

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While we wait for OP to clarify what he really meant, I have my own take.

No one has said, including the OP, that an applicant has to pick a major to show her/his interest, but s/he would enhance her/his chance of admission if s/he can demonstrate convincingly her/his curiosity, enthusiasm, and yes ideally “passion”, for something(s) (especially when applying to a super-reachy school). A student applying to one of those schools presumably should have some indepth interests and showed some committments that reflect those interests.

We all have our own anecdotes. My S is equally gifted in STEM and humanities. Up until a year or so before his college applications, I wasn’t sure what he wanted to do in college and beyond. He made up his mind on one of our college tours. He applied to five super-reaches, and only one safety (probably a violation of one of the CC rules of thumb). He showed his “passion” (in CS) on his applications and is currently attending one of those super reaches.

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Why would that be “a violation of one of the CC rules of thumb” if the safety actually was an affordable safety that he would have been happy to attend if he got no other affordable admissions?

Some students run into trouble when their “safety” is not really a safety for them at all (either does not admit them (or does not admit them to the desired major), is not affordable, or is not a place they would be happy to attend).

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What I meant by violation is that he didn’t have any “matches”. He was in a category that those “matches” would’ve likely deferred or waitlisted him due to their own yield considerations.

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That’s helpful. Yes, agree the academics are a given. No school wants a kid who is inactive or just going to go to class. They are looking for a whole person who will be an engaged member of the community. Not sure everyone values that aspect of the opportunities presented to any college student. Some kids can really show they are leaders, builders, community engagers etc. Some other kids just present a list of stats. So standing out seems to be a matter of the kid being able to present themselves in the proper light.

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Here’s the premise: If you’re applying to college, you should take the time to think through why you’re applying. In other words, what you think you want to study and do with your degree. Then, you should use that as an orienting principle for your application. That’s good for you strategically, as an applicant, and substantively, as a person.

If you honestly feel that premise only applies to 7 schools, then I’m doing an awful job articulating my position.

And here’s a different Admission Officer from Emory if Stanford seems like an outlier: "But while the student listed neuroscience as a major, ‘there is no example of neuro in the file’ in terms of activities or in the essays, the admissions officer said. She suggested that they move the application to the wait list, which would be a ‘softer landing’ than an outright denial.” The Wall Street Journal, “The Secrets of Elite College Admissions,” Jeff Selingo.

Students: My advice shouldn’t freak you out. It should empower you. Because I know it can be disorienting when you’re compiling your applications and writing your essays: What, exactly, should you be trying to convey? Colleges and counselors offer advice like this: “Just be yourself.” “They want to know who you are.” “Show them how you think.” “Try to figure out the traits that particular school is looking for and showcase them.” If those ideas help you, Hooaah!

But to me, those responses are too general to be helpful. And they all beg the question. I say you should feel empowered because I’m trying to boil down a complex process to offer one specific approach that’s based on logic you can follow:

Since you’re primarily applying to be a student in an Intellectual Community, it makes good sense to focus on highlighting your student-traits, your intellectual-traits. One of the best ways to do that? Talking about ideas you find important, challenging, and might want to study. In other words, not applying undecided, but having majors in mind.

Some seem to question that premise: “No, students are not primarily applying to be a student in an Intellectual Community.” I can’t imagine what is more primary. Going to class to earn a degree in a specific academic field is the heart of a university. And even when you’re out of the classroom, when you’re in the “community,” what do you think is the leading (note, leading, not only) quality a university wants? It’s intellectual. Schools want students engaging in lively intellectual discussions with classmates in the dorms, over lunch at the cafeteria, at coffee or office hours with professors.

Do all your essays turn into Why My Majors? Of course not. But if I’m offering you one (note, one, not only), rough-and-ready rule: Your essays should strive to showcase your student-qualities–how much you love reading, writing, thinking, etc.–and one of the easiest ways to do that . . . discussing and connecting (creatively!) to academic ideas you find interesting. That is, ideas you want to study.

Can you only have one interest? Of course not. It can work even better if you can discuss two fields. (That’s why the example in my opening post discussed philosophy and psychology.)

Are intellectual, student-traits all that matter? Of course not. But you better believe being smart is the cardinal admission virtue. Because college is primarily (note, primarily, not only) a place where you’re using and improving your mind.

This is just one take. If it helps you, great. If some other admission philosophy makes more sense to you, Hooaah! Every admission officer is different and cares about slightly different things. But in my experience, intellectual qualities and ideas you care about–that is, ideas you want to study–are always primary. And without sketching out my entire admission philosophy, I’m offering you what I think is your most helpful North Star.

–MCS
Students: I’ll be in the Student Forum for admission help: Admission Corner

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Has Stanford, in particular, created this environment? This professor noted the evident intelligence of Stanford students, but did not perceive them to be especially engaged in the way described above: