The number of high school graduates has increased about 10% since 2006. That is going to put pressure on some populations. Unlike athletes, the number from other categories (e.g. contest winners) can be adjusted down to make room for the increase in the “general” population.
Agreed.
“Leadership” takes many forms, whether as, some have noted being a “thought leader” or something else. What I love about Apollo 13, both the real event and the movie, was it showed some of the very best science and engineering minds (the astronauts, NASA, and all the prime contractors associated with the mission) thinking in a way that they never dreamed of to miraculously ensure the “successful failure.”
The Apollo project was one of the finest moments in US and world history in showing the way things COULD be.
I get the impression that the “top schools” are looking for students who have done something unique and/or that makes a difference (whether in terms of a personal accomplishment or for others).
If I knew, I would be an AO.
Best as I can tell, I guess the French call it “je ne sais quoi”…the trick is making sure the AOs know what that certain something is!
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Except sports, it seems. There seems to be no end to colleges’ hunger for sports champions.
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Sports championships are not getting any more abundant. They are also higher profile than most academic contests, since sports are mostly understood by all students and alumni, while academic contests are mostly understood only by those in that academic area.
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It just seems like a lot of misplaced priorities to me. Our country obviously needs experts in math, engineering, and CS as shown by the competitive job market for them. So they objectively have high value. And yet elite colleges are progressively devaluing these kids- now these skills are boring, colleges have seen it before, there is an abundance of them so it is only natural they be devalued, these kids are “all alike.”
Why don’t we say that lacrosse players are “all alike”? And lacrosse is a niche sport; it’s not like the nation follows it, or our economy needs it. But somehow lacrosse team is thought to build character and leadership, while math team is thought to build boring kids who are all alike. And sports teach hard work and persistence. But math team teaches people to be “grinds.”
I think it comes down to prejudice. And I feel we are gaslighting the OP.
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And there’s something else that I think is very important. It is in areas like math, engineering, and CS where we ( as in The US) still have a slight edge. We under cut this at our own peril.
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There’s a lot of devaluing across the board by colleges. I think it’s often related to things which are definable by stats v. things which are subjectively measured.
I really feel for the kids who excels in his/her area of interest and yet doesn’t fit into the bucket of what some AO thinks is important.
We need CS candidates and we need engineers and yet both majors are very over subscribed these days. This means in 4 years we’ll have less than we need. People want to go into these fields. Build some more colleges with engineering programs and CS programs. Let’s focus on jobs that are needed and important to society. We have enough space for some of the other stuff. Plenty of room in some other majors.
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But aren’t we just talking about the “top schools”? OP specifically mentioned MIT and Stanford.
There are obviously TONS of great engineering, math, and science programs all over the US outside of the “top schools”.
I don’t disagree for one second about the importance of these subjects and the importance of getting the students into places at the schools in the US. But does it automatically have to be just the “top schools”?
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Actually, there are plenty of CS and engineering major programs that are not particularly hard to get into. But lots of students think that UC Riverside, UC Merced, CSU Los Angeles, CSU Northridge, etc. (and equivalents in other states) are “beneath” them.
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We have PLENTY of colleges that have available seats in engineering and CS.
Somehow though the masses have decided that DePaul, Dayton, Missouri S&T, UMass Lowell, SD Mines, Florida Tech, and on and on provide a ‘lesser’ education, and/or grads get ‘lesser’ outcomes in terms of jobs and salaries.
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Even taking rankings into account (csrankings.org) both UC Riverside and SUNY Stonybrook crack the top 40. I do not see too many people wanting to go there. I must stress these rankings are mostly for graduate study and for undergraduates there are even more options like SLO and harvey mudd.
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There may not be causation, and the differences may not persist, but engineering grads from DePaul (via the joint program with IIT), Dayton, Missouri S&T, UMass Lowell, SD Mines, and Florida Tech do get “lesser” outcomes, in terms of salaries, than do engineering graduates of the Ivies and other top 20 schools.
I didn’t realize there were so many open options. I do get why kids want to get into some programs ( mainly related to ROI). But I also know a couple of schools on that list have very good programs. The hard thing is, most colleges cost the same amount regardless of ROI.
I agree things are very difficult for Asian males from population centers trying to enter CS - obviously the issue has made its way to the Supreme Court, but too late for this cohort. My son was also denied at MIT and Stanford and I thought it was incredible/interesting how little many (not saying all) of the accepted applicants to MIT knew about CS - like comments about how they were teaching themself to program online during their senior year. My son learned C++ and Java in 4th grade and is strong in 11 languages - has an array of apps, opensource code, commercial add ons for spotify and reddit - extensive experience in developing and innovating in technology - losing out to someone with similar passion is understandable but some of the kids they took don’t seem to have much demonstrated interest in the major- it was weird to read the profiles. I have a lot of respect for MIT, but I’m not really sure what is going on.
Ultimately we landed at a school that values him for his achievements and aptitude vs his demographic or connections and for that we are SO THANKFUL. My takeaway on this crazy cycle is these amazing achieving kids are going to land elsewhere and start creating new epicenters of innovation and growth. I’m so excited for his journey.
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That’s a good point. I was talking about this, in more general terms, to one of my Ds. The issues we are seeing in terms of massive competitiveness etc are limited to a relative handful of schools. If memory serves me correctly, the information I’ve obtained on CC over the years indicates that there are more than 3000 colleges and universities.
The log jam is limited to a few of these institutions, AFAIK.
Not being a tech person, the issue in the US has been the LACK of emphasis on training in math and science. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the acronym “STEM” has only come into modern parlance relatively recently.
But in terms of PLACES in schools for STEM-oriented students, I think there are a lot. Not so much at the “top schools”, but I think that applies for most any major, certainly for the T-20.
You have to look where they place. fl tech is placing in Central Florida. UAH in Huntsville. Lots of local jobs.
Many of the higher tier schools are placing nationally and moving people to higher cost cities.
My employer would pay a Gtech engineering grad and South Carolina grad the same.
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Well your employer might not get the Gtech student as a hire. Gtech is outstanding and the person might have a number of offers. South Carolina is good too. And there’s a lot of competitiveness for hiring these days. My spouse hires frequently. Knows that you have to get offers out quick and move fast. People will get counter offers if things aren’t settled fast( less than 2-3 day). And bonuses and more $ are very common over the last 18 months.
Well there are a lot of specific programs that fill quickly. Let’s say you want to be an aeronautical engineer, not many spaces. Some kids want to also stay in a particular state or region. I think getting a robust STEM degree ( not necessarily top 50 but not top 2,000 either) can be tough esp for males. There are more male applicants to every program. And there are many Asian males to every program so while there might be spaces, the spaces might be different depending on demographics.
But yes, kids need to be open to a variety of schools.
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I’m simply saying the pay is based on location.
My son is an Alabama student. Was paid the same last summer as his two Ga Tech roommates. This year he’s making $1 more an hour…the same as the other interns. The Ga Tech kids weren’t invited back.
It is true many companies recruit at only some schools. However, I do think most have a range or amount they pay. My son wasn’t recruited. His school isn’t a target. He applied on line. Ga Tech was recruited.
Fair point.
A few years ago, and for basically my entire life until recently, I was totally besotted with the notion of “top schools.” While my older DD has done really well in HS, I am cautioning her to not fall in love with any school and to create a list of attainable safeties she likes. Her strategies will likely include everything from the alleged “T-20s” to something that we’ve discovered as an incredible option since we’re CA-base (CC+transfer) to a gap year, given how awful the last few years have been. We’re keeping everything on the table
That is it. There are SO many schools in the US and around the world. The goal CANNOT be to get into T-20 and then you coast. It’s what you do WITH your opportunities that matters. It took me decades to realize that.
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