<p>kimfuge-- I chose Dartmouth over Smith (merit scholarship prog), Northwestern, Stanford, Wellesley, Johns Hopkins, Duke</p>
<p>Duskstamper - why don't you click on the selectivity rankings in your own link? Dartmouth is ranked ahead of Penn there.</p>
<p>Check the US News Rankings, Penn is ranked fourth, after HYP. Higher SAT averages doesn't mean higher selectivity because Penn's applicant pool is larger than Dartmouth's to begin with. Hands down, Ivies' prestige goes HYP, Penn, then everyone else. I mean, you have to be insane to relate a school's avg. SAT score to its prestige/selectivity/greatness...look at Chicago, it has an almost 50% acceptance rate EA, but the school itself is claimed by many experts to have one of the best undergraduate departments in the US. The avg. SAT for Chicago is fairly high, but not THAT high, however, it doesn't result in the fact that Chicago is any more or less prestigious...</p>
<p>Dartmouth's 50% Range: 1310 - 1480
Penn's 50% Range: 1330 - 1510
Penn's US News Rankings for Selectivity: 7
Dartmouth US News Rankings for Selectivity: 10
Penn's student faculty ratio: 6:1
Dartmouth's student faculty ratio: 9:1
Faculty Resources: Penn=#1 Dartmouth=#20</p>
<p>The only reason that Dartmouth <em>might</em> appear more selective is because it has a smaller applicant pool and an even smaller school...</p>
<p>Dartmouth:</p>
<p>SAT I - Verbal Range (25-75%): 660-760
SAT I - Math Range (25-75%): 670-770</p>
<p>Penn:</p>
<p>SAT I - Verbal Range (25-75%): 650-750
SAT I - Math Range (25-75%): 680-760</p>
<p>Get your facts right.</p>
<p>I think her source was USNEWS, which is more than a legitimate source. Irregardless, the SAT ranges are so similiar (the ones you put) we must look towards other factors, like the student-faculty ratio, the faculty resources rank, the research money, the selectivity rank, and the % who are top 10% in HS. Penn is 93%. Dartmouth is 84%. Usually it won't matter if it is +-4, 5%, but 9% is a substantial amount. </p>
<p>Even the Consus group this year put Penn above Dartmouth. USnews did. Most rankings put Penn on top off Dartmouth. Dartmouth is a great school, but it is not above Penn. It is in the same tier above Penn, but postings such as</p>
<p>Harvard
Pton
Yale
Dartmouth</p>
<hr>
<p>Penn
Columbia, etc</p>
<p>is false.</p>
<p>Catch-22, where did you get your sources from?</p>
<p>According to U.S. News:</p>
<p>Dartmouth:1330-1530
Penn:1330-1510</p>
<p>And plus, the high SAT average of Penn is probably because of wharton students.</p>
<p>I apologized, she asked and I gave her the SAT scores without looking carefully; the SAT scores are on the second page and I saw Northwestern's, which is ranked directly below Dartmouth's. </p>
<p>You might cite that Wharton brings the overall SAT up, but Wharton is less than a sixth of Penn's overall matriculant pool. I can also say that the school of nursing brings the SAT score down. What's your point? Again, ignoring Wharton is like ignoring the SAT scores of the school of engineering at Cornell (or any school for that matter).</p>
<p>And again, the SAT scores are so close it's almost negligible. However, the freshmen i nteh top 10% is not. There's a 9% difference. USNEWS believes that Penn is more selective. SAT rank correlates with selectivity but there are more factors than just the SAT- the class rank is one example and the applicant pool is another. No one argues that Harvard is better (albeit slightly) than Caltech, but the SAT scores of Caltech as a whole is higher than Harvard's, Princeton's and Yale's.</p>
<p>I've heard it before, but doesn't the Wharton school at UPenn skew the selectivity of the college? ... once again, these rankings are useless... they are both damn good schools, period... whether one is SLIGHTLY more selective than the other shouldn't be a factor in deciding which college is right for you...</p>
<p>I think you are all a bit sensitive?
Did any of you pick your schools because of the rankings?</p>
<p>If you did, I'm not so sure that came through in your applications, otherwise, it's highly unlikely you would have been admitted.</p>
<p>Although, I would give the Dartmouth students the benefit of the doubt . . . </p>
<p>at least they're not jumping all over the Penn's forum about how "My dad's bigger than your dad."</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've heard it before, but doesn't the Wharton school at UPenn skew the selectivity of the college?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've heard it before, but don't the engineering students at MIT (Caltech, Cornell, UT-Austin) skew the selectivity of the college?</p>
<p>I've heard it before, but doesn't the international relations program at Georgetown skew the selectivity of the college?</p>
<p>You can say the same thing for any college w/ particular strengths. Business is one of Penn's strength. Hence more stronger aspiring businessmen apply to Wharton. Pre-law is Georgetown's strength. Hence stronger aspiring lawyers apply to Georgetown. Ad infinitum.</p>
<p>
[quote]
once again, these rankings are useless... they are both damn good schools, period... whether one is SLIGHTLY more selective than the other shouldn't be a factor in deciding which college is right for you...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>Perhaps the difference, from a D-student point of view, is that even though these factors might apply to other schools they don't apply to Dartmouth. That is Penn College would be the obvious comparison with Dartmouth College. Brown would be a better comparison to Dartmouth.
Penn to Columbia - Cornell.
Who would seriously be torn between attending Dartmouth or Penn?</p>
<p>Dartmouth or Brown, perhaps.
Dartmouth or Williams/Amherst, highly likely.</p>
<p>Anyone torn between Dartmouth or Penn is most likely only hoping for the prestige factor of an Ivy . . . what bad form!</p>
<p>Finally, a civil answer. One of my best friends goes to Dartmouth. I have a lot of respect for Dartmouth graduates and students. The applicant pool for Dartmouth is indeed one searching for a more LAC environment! Penn is a research university. Both are equally thought highly off and are in the same tier. I apologize for my knee-jerk answer, but quotes such as these:</p>
<p>
[quote]
AI wise, it's: </p>
<p>Harvard
Yale/Princeton
Dartmouth</p>
<p>(GAP)</p>
<p>Columbia
Penn
Brown
Cornell
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yeah- and actually, Penn accepts close to 20%, and Dartmouth is only 19% (overall).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth so deserves to be above Penn- the only thing bolstering Penn's ranking is Wharton, which skews the ranking. Dartmouth and Penn should really just switch rankings. </p>
<p>This is how I'd rank them: (the first 3 I'm not 100% sure about, but the rest look good to me)</p>
<p>-Harvard
-Yale
-Princeton
-Columbia
-Darmouth
-Brown
-Penn
-Cornell
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Irritates me beyond belief. If they at least want to put Dartmouth above Penn they should find better evidence. Why not agree both are equally good schools but with different environments and strengths?</p>
<p>Penn has certainly leaped through the rankings of late, USNWR #4.
On the other hand, for years, Penn has had the rep of being the saftey of the Ivies, but it seems that this was based on only a portion of those who attened Penn, obviously alot of those who attended Penn chose Penn because they loved it, not because they failed to get into whichever Ivy was their first choice.
I supposed presige seekers are now confused, Penn is rated #4, where do I go for a saftey?</p>
<p>On the other hand, Dartmouth is so much of what it alone is (whether you like it or not), that only a fool could mistakenly end up at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Where did you get that generalization?
First of all, Cornell is the safety of the Ivies. </p>
<p>Penn has always had a strong business program, a strong pre-med and nursing program due to the Upenn school system. Many people like Penn for its flexibility; I myself had an easy time writing my Why PENN essay. Penn, unlike many other universities, allows people to take courses across many different schools. Anyone can take a course in Wharton. Anyone can have a dual degree. </p>
<p>You say people go to Penn for its prestige. If one wants prestige, then it's the big 3: Yale, Princeton, Harvard. Everyone mixes it up with Penn State. The other day a mother asked me, isn't that in University Park? </p>
<p>Penn has smaller classes than Dartmouth. It's an urban college. It's very flexible. That's why people choose Penn, not because of prestige.</p>
<p>Also,</p>
<p>people who say</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth so deserves to be above Penn- the only thing bolstering Penn's ranking is Wharton, which skews the ranking. Dartmouth and Penn should really just switch rankings.
[/quote]
[quote]
Yeah- and actually, Penn accepts close to 20%, and Dartmouth is only 19% (overall).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>certainly aren't worried about prestige...</p>
<p>Don't kill me,</p>
<p>That's not at all what I said. </p>
<p>I said anyone that would have thought "saftey-school" was a prestige seeking deferee from another Ivy (HYP).
They are the ones responsible for the unearned rep of saftey school. I don't agree with it in general.</p>
<p>Although, I have come across this lamentable comment in a few reference guides I think it's losing its currency amongst the general public.</p>
<p>Do you actually believe that Penn has smaller classes than those at Dartmouth? And the AI rankings I posted are from a Harvard admission officer.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you actually believe that Penn has smaller classes than those at Dartmouth?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First of all, why would it matter? Both would have much smaller classes than say, Berkeley...</p>
<p>However,
I wouldn't be surprised. My school sent a few to Penn; One came back and said that although he had large classes freshmen year, the classes he had his junior year were small; some were in the single digits. I am just citing statistics from USNEWS. In the latest edition, Penn is ranked #1 for the faculty resources , has 74% of classes under 20, 7% of classes of 50 or more, and a 6/1 student:faculty ratio.</p>
<p>Likewise, Dartmouth is ranked #20 for faculty resources, has 56% of classes under 20, 9% of classes of 50 or more, and a 9:1 student faculty ratio.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And the AI rankings I posted are from a Harvard admission officer.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd like to see a source first. The SAT scores are similiar for both schools. However, Penn has 93% in the top 10% whereas for dartmouth it's 84%. Class rank is 1/3 of the AI. the SAT favors Dartmouth just very slightly where it's almost negligible. Unless the SAT II's for Dartmouth are much, much higher than Penn's applicants, your AI claim is false.</p>
<p>And again, why are you trying to claim Dartmouth is superior? Let's agree that both are great schools with different environments.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hands down, Ivies' prestige goes HYP, Penn, then everyone else.
[/quote]
While I realize Penn is an excellent school, I would counter this statement - Penn seems to have less prestige than the rest of the Ivies. Most people I know either consider it their "safety" Ivy, even putting behind non-Ivies like Northwestern/G-town/Stanford, or haven't heard of it all. (Option 3 Mixing it up with Penn State but thats okay, Penn State is another prestigious school. <em>sarcasm</em>) To the contrary, in my experience, mentions of Dartmouth and Columbia generally cause listeners to be impressed, if not a bit turned-off at all the college name-dropping. Of course, HYP seem to be the most impressive.</p>
<p>Rankings aren't really important to me. But it seems that Penn is at the bottom of the pile as far as prestige goes, even if it's a top school academically.</p>
<p>A long time ago Penn was considered an Ivy safety, as recently as 1997 its acceptance rate was above 30% (in the 70's it was as high as 50%). That said, schools fluctuate, choosing one of these schools for prestige over another is ridiculous. </p>
<p>Personally this is how I look at these schools:</p>
<p>1) Harvard
Stanford
Yale
Princeton
Caltech</p>
<p>2) Dartmouth
Columbia
Penn
Brown
Duke
Amherst
Williams
Swarthmore</p>
<p>3) Cornell
Northwestern
Chicago
etc.</p>
<p>Within these groups I would not use prestige as a deciding factor at all. Choosing a school in a lower group over a higher one (ie Columbia over Yale) I would think twice about.</p>