This is getting to be very expensive

Parents Forum
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<p>abasket....I agree that certain things are choices such as how many schools one applies to and how far away they are and if you visit them in advance, etc. Certain things are not choices such as test scores, CSS fees, app fees, etc. </p>

<p>In regard to my own kids' extra expenses to apply for specialized programs, you could say it is a choice but in my view, these are their fields. In order to be admitted for Musical Theater, one must audition for each school and so this involves expenses. To be admitted for Architecture, one must have a professionally printed portfolio made for each college. As well, the admit rates to these programs are very very very low and necessitate a certain number of schools to even have a chance to admission. You could say it is a choice to pick these majors and professional degree programs, but these fields are my kids' passions and life's work and so there is no way I could say study something else that has less expense for the admissions process. Also, these expenses are peanuts compared to the cost of attending the college programs.</p>

<p>By the way, for undergrad, my kids each applied to 8 schools. While we did not put geographical limitations on them, they wanted to stay on the East Coast (and upper half of it). As far as locations, for a BFA in MT applicant, there are a limited number of programs available and so you can't just say you want to stay right in your own area (none exist in my entire state, for example).</p>

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<p>Some of the schools DS applied to specifically said they calculated travel expense based on one's distance from home. I assume that only covers airfare, though -- and yes, the ground transportation can get expensive.</p>

<p>We told our kids several years ago that a car was not in our EFC. Worked out fine for DS1 -- he is in NO hurry to get his license anyway, and his top choices have public transit (of varying degrees of efficiency). DS2 is likely to feel more of a need for wheels. (The running joke is that when he turns 16 in a few weeks, we'll get him any car he likes. In matchbox size.)</p>

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<p>abasket:
I agree there are choices. Actually, we did not spend anything near the amounts others are reporting here (frugal lifestyle plus a bit of luck). First, we did not make any college visits (many reasons, financial considerations included). Second, for two of our three kids all the expenses consisted of SAT-taking fees and application fees to one college for each kid; add something like 4 CSS's and two additional SAT-sending fees for the third kid (he applied to 7 or 8 colleges, afair). Oh, yes, and the stamps for the teacher rec letters!</p>

<p>But I can't agree with you about "gems right in your area" being less expensive options by definition. Let's see... DS attends Lawrence University in WI, 1000 miles from home. He pays $300 for round-trip airfare twice a year (btw, DD, who was in college at the same distance from home, was paying for her tickets $100-$120). Now, let's suppose that DS would go to Sarah Lawrence instead (a gem much closer to our home). Yeah, we would save those $600/year on airfare. Yay? But wait, COA at Sarah Lawrence is some $13 000/year more than at Lawrence! Ouch... I guess we were not THAT wrong seeking the options for DS a bit further than in our own backyard (east-coast price tags scare me, really...) :) </p>

<p>And, like soozievt said, for some kids there are no options close to home, alas.</p>

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<p>True Marmat and my original statement did say "may be" gems in your area, etc...</p>

<p>Exceptions will always be there. I just am stunned when I read so many posts that indicate that searching the country for the right choice, filling out handfuls of applications etc. is REQUIRED. If you can afford it, then it is wonderful that that option is there. But for the majority of the percentage of students entering college each year, that option is NOT an option and they learn to do more with less and still have success at college and afterwards. The college is important, the quality is important, but the single most important ingredient is a student's motivation and enthusiasm to succeed where they land. My mantra: BLOOM WHERE YOU ARE PLANTED.</p>

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<p>Re: your mantra, abasket. I like this, and it has given me a funny image.</p>

<p>If my S follows his calling, he will be a seed in the gullet of a seabird that plans on taking a poop in the British Isles!</p>

<p>I, too, just finished with the FAFSAs and CSSs, so must be feeling a bit loopy.</p>

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<p>Wow edad, I didn't know the recruiters were lining up for those graduates. I learn something here every day. :rolleyes: I assuredly did not mean to impugn those who nobly pursue their passions - just a little depravation of financial resources humor.</p>

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<p>I have two neighbors being treated for breast cancer. One had surgery and is now getting chemo at our local hospital; she's wearing turbans and cute baseball hats to hide her scalp; she opts for chemo on Fridays so she only misses one day of work per week. The other is being treated in a major cancer center 60 miles from here; is scheduled for reconstructive surgery with a specialist in another city; bought a custom made wig so her clients wouldn't be aware that she's lost her hair.</p>

<p>I wouldn't presume to tell either how to spend their time or their money; nor would I be cruel enough to try and prognosticate who will have the better outcome or who has opted for the more successful path. I'm sure the woman who travels for treatment is aware that there are cheaper and more convenient options just as I'm sure some moron has tried to talk the other friend out of using a local oncologist and finding a famous specialist in a big city.</p>

<p>For kids who apply to a couple of local schools, or to one out of town school, or for families who are comfortable with a more minimalist approach-- I'm glad it works for you. For kids who travel hither and yon and have the expenses associated with a lot of travel and a lot of choice and a lot of ancillary costs either for audtions and what-not-- I'm glad it works for you. I think people on this board can be incredibly helpful in sharing information and points of view on different college related subjects, but I've noticed that when the talk turns to money the tone turns sour very quickly.</p>

<p>For some people visiting colleges is a positive bonding experience in lieu of a family vacation and they find it worth every penny just to have focused time with a HS senior who generally shuns their company. For others it's a waste of money and time- why visit if you don't know you'll get in? Why find a hidden gem in New London CT when you live in Chicago? Aren't there enough colleges in Illinois?</p>

<p>I say peace. College is expensive no matter how you cut it, so let's give each other some slack on the ancillary expenses.</p>

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<p>Personally, I was just trying to present another point of view. And I said in different posts "great if this is what you choose". But I also feel the orginal posts (not just OP) were expressing emotions (whether shock, surprise, complaining, etc) re: the costs that I want to point of "you do have options". Applied to only "8" schools? Again in middle-class America where I live, that is not the norm....I don't begrudge those that choose to, but just want to speak for the "others" who are shocked and HAVE found other options to the multiple applications and piles of $$$. It could NEVER have been in our reach to visit schools states/coasts away.</p>

<p>But we did thoroughly, as a family, enjoy the few schools within our state and neigboring states that we visited...and I look forward to doing it again with our sophomore son...</p>

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<p>I went back and read the original post, by Dad II, and I must say I don't understand how on earth a simple attempt at making casual conversation could lead to any rancor. We've all heard about the escalating costs of a college education, but most of us hadn't calculated the total sum of all the little extra expenses of the application procedure, and most of us were surprised and a little taken aback. It's water-cooler chatter; nothing to get excited about.</p>

<p>abasket, I know from reading some of Dad II's other threads that his daughter has included schools that offer lucrative merit awards for which his daughter's record is 'in the range'. My son was in exactly the same position, and applied to the same number of schools. In my son's case, that strategy paid off extremely well, and it may work that way for Dad II's daughter also. Restricting my son's search to the local area in order to avoid application fees and the cost of forwarding a few more SAT scores would have been, for him, "penny-wise and pound-foolish". In the extreme.</p>

<p>Now, what is this about exorbitant prom costs?? My son and his many friends had a blast. Big dinner party at the home of one of the girls, off to the prom, over to another home for a dessert party and then to my house for an all-night party in my basement. He did have to rent a tux. Borrowed his dad's car so his date didn't have to be subjected to his yucky pick-up truck. </p>

<p>College application costs: just part of the game.
Prom costs: cheaper can be more fun.</p>

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<p>Agreed on the water cooler chat - and truly, I was just trying to add to the chat with an alternative point of view - apologies if it seemed like criticism. I enjoy discussion, so I just wanted to share another view...!</p>

<p>Agreed on the prom thing! Set your limits, find fun within those limits and enjoy!</p>

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<p>blossom, I also found that when it comes to how people spend their money, a lot of judgment comes into play in these discussions. </p>

<p>Abasket, by the way, I never wrote "ONLY 8 schools." I wrote that each applied to 8 schools. My oldest applied to a balance of reach, match, and safeties. The reaches were also reaches for anybody due to their low admit rates. She did not apply anywhere in state and in fact, no instate school would have offered what she was looking for. We have great schools in our state but none met her college criteria in terms of both her academic and extracurricular interests. My youngest was applying to specialized degree programs. You have to go where those are offered. None are offered in our state. Further, there are not even that many to pick from in the first place. Frankly, applying to 8 was on the low side for those seeking a BFA in Musical Theater. If you visit the MT Forum, or know such candidates (I advise them in my work), you would know that my D's list was very very chancy because she had no BA back ups (which I would not recommend to anyone) and you would also know that the admit rate to these programs averages about 5% (some as low as 2% and some as high as 9%). Had she applied to any less, she'd have had an even more difficult odds. Right now, my oldest is applying to graduate schools of architecture. Again, that is not an option in our state. The closest option is over three hours away. In fact, the acceptance rates at those options, as well as most of her schools, is about 10%. Applying to just a few would be even more extremely difficult odds than she already faces. </p>

<p>One of my kids attends college four hours from home and one attends college six hours from home....both within driving distance. </p>

<p>Some cannot afford to visit schools until after acceptances roll in and I can understand that. For my oldest child, all our visits were by car. My younger child HAD to audition in order to be accepted to her schools. It was difficult to afford, but in the scheme of what college costs for four years, it is a small amount of the total. In any case, had we said you have to go to school close to home, she could not have pursued this major. This major has been her life's work from the time she was very young. </p>

<p>You can get a great education anywhere. Who you are and what you make of yourself is the main thing and you can be a success no matter where you went to college. However, certain schools may be a more appropriate match for a student. For us (and I don't profess to say this is RIGHT for anyone ELSE), letting our kids find the schools that matched their needs the best has been worth every penny (even if other options are cheaper). They receive very good financial aid and we have chosen to go into debt for this because we want to, but that is not better or more right. But it has worked for us. </p>

<p>As far as prom, that was not a big expense where we live, other than buying a dress. I realize it is costlier in other regions of the country but those where we live usually are not of those means and the expenses are not enormous for these events.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I'm much more shocked by the out-of-sight prom costs. My son didnn't choose to attend the prom either year (like me, he had a very small peer group pre-college) so we were spared those expenses, but kids around here don't tend to spend as much on prom.</p>

<p>We didn't keep track of how much we spent on visits, our main expense, but I'm sure it was a bundle. We visited 20 colleges all over the country and then revisited 6. But it was a ton of fun, a shared family experience and we visited family and friends along the way. My son learned so much about himself in this journey toward college and DH and I loved sharing it with him. </p>

<p>I realize that it was a luxury to be able to do this, but DS did, in the end, find a school he loved that is saving us $15,000 per year because of a merit scholarship, so that will buy a lot of plane trips and motel room stays.</p>

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<p>Sooz, the "only 8" didn't refer to you - that's what the OP said.</p>

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<p>abasket:</p>

<p>I guess I can't agree with the "this is what you choose" part - and especially with the (apparently implied) conjunction "if you choose not to spend all this money, the result will not be that much different"</p>

<p>Yes, the majority of the college applicants in the country just apply to a nearby public university or two and are done. And majority of school counselors only present their students this option. And many of these students live happily ever after (although if you look at the dropout rates, you may start wonder whether some of them did something not right...) ;)</p>

<p>We did not "choose" to spend or not to spend money on the things (whether or not these things are deemed to represent a "norm" in our or somebody else's neighborhood). Neither I think Dad II or other posters were "choosing" some extra stuff just because they had extra money. It was just the stuff they were seeing as necessary for the successful application process in their case. Yeah, our family also happened to be among those who did not have to spend tons of money on the applications, but that's just it: it happened. Our kids were just lucky to get into their respective first-choice colleges on the first try, and two of them did not need to apply anywhere else (that both colleges did not use CSS was a bit of luck, too, I guess). For the third one the situation was much more complicated, and he had to send several additional applications (I never knew that 8 is not the "norm"... and actually, in hindsight I see that he should've sent more, taking into account his particular circumstances).</p>

<p>In a Midwestern town we lived before, the college visits (which you enjoy) were not the "norm" - but why should anybody even be interested in the "norm", if every child's and every family's situation is different? My friend, whose DD needs a pretty specific program in pretty specific major and at pretty specific level, spent tons of money on college visits across the country (and no, it was not easy for their family) - but I would not dream of telling her "That was your own choice, look: my kids did just fine with no visits, and you could've done the same"... Every kid has different needs, and those are pretty real needs, not just something the parents can "choose" to ignore.</p>

<p>Oh, and the low cost of Midwestern colleges compared to their East-coast peer institutions is NOT an "exception" under any definition of this word...</p>

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<p>Abasket....sorry for misinterpretting the "only 8". I was confused as I had recently posted that both of my children applied to 8 schools. I now understand that "only 8" was referring to the OP. I just know that I wouldn't think of it as "only 8" myself as my feeling is that MOST STUDENTS (and there definitely are certain circumstances where this would not be applicable) should be able to apply to between 8-12 schools. Some kids need less and some need more depending on certain factors. But typically few students need more than 12. That's why I don't think of 8 as "only." For some students, less than 8 works. </p>

<p>In any case, there are some costs involved in applying to college, particularly the application fees and the test scores and required financial aid forms and the like. I prefer to visit schools and we visited our kids' final lists of colleges. At present, my child applying to grad schools has not yet seen all of her schools as that is difficult to do while IN college. She saw some by train and saw some when seeing her undergrad schools but will have to wait until she gets her admissions results to possibly see others (if she is even that lucky to get in given the low odds). it is hard to afford but the expense of the tests, the score reports, the application fees, the portfolio copies, and visits is part of the college costs and a small amount of the total package. But yes, it is not easy to come up with those funds. I don't see these funds as a choice because it is part of the application process for her major. I can't say, well, portfolios are too costly, because that is what is needed to get in. Going to some other school or major just wouldn't work and would be a waste of thousands of dollars.</p>

<p>On other threads on these forums, I have read some look negatively upon more expensive colleges when other colleges cost less. I have read critcism of spending this kind of money on "arts" degrees. Everyone should do what they can or want to do. For us, we could not be happier than the fact that both of our children found schools that were excellent matches for them and just love these places. They may have been just as happy elsewhere, who knows. But I do know that they have had exceptional experiences that fit them to a T. I feel lucky about that. For us, hardship and all, it has been priceless.</p>

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<p>all those expenses.... times TWINS.</p>

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<p>In my son's case, it was less about finding academic fit and more about social fit. He could "fit in" anywhere, but since he'd had to spend his whole academic life up to this point mostly surrounded by kids who didn't know what he was talking about, I thought it was worth doing a search to find him the happiest fit socially, a place where unconventional thinking is the norm and is highly valued. This would have been very hard to figure out without visits. He did, in fact, find that fit, so it feels like it was worth every penny.</p>

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<p>Marmat, I don't know that there is a fact-study which suggests that kids who don't do college visits have a higher drop out rate than kids who do, nor that kids who choose their "dream college" graduate at any greater rate or with greater success than kids who settle for whatever is close, cheap, convenient, or whatever. There are many studies showing that kids with financial hardship drop out in larger numbers than affluent-- but the difference is attributed to coming up with tuition money, balancing work and studying, lack of family support, etc. and not the up-front costs of due diligence.</p>

<p>We know families who live very affluently who choose for religious or cultural reasons to have their kids attend a college within commuting distance without regard for whether the peer group will "get" their kid, provide a stimulating environment, or even have the appropriate academic options. Not visiting, or casting a wide net, or doing internet research on "fit" has nothing to do with cost for these families. Marmat you seem to assume than anyone who has the money to spend on this stuff would automatically do so. They "Choose" not to spend the money, since they've got no interest in the "perfect" college for their kid. The young women major in speech pathology or physical therapy or early childhood education at a local public U which offers these majors; the men get BS degrees in accounting or actuarial science. The notion that you'd do college visits to check out the student union, evaluate the schools Chaucer society or Handel and Haydn performance group is a foreign one to these families. And- there are also families close by of limited means who will invest significant time and money in exploring the "perfect" opportunity for their kid. These families reason that if they can identify a school which offers huge aid and fits their kid to a "T" they've maximized the kids long term opportunity. But they "choose" to cast a wide net, and "choose" to care about the social climate of the environment.</p>

<p>So yes- it's all a choice. Which is why I still suggest that people not make judgements on how other families choose to spend their money.</p>

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<p>I guess I look at it as part of the investment. I wanted to make sure my daughters were at the best fit for them. Let me explain... I was looking down the road at eventually forking out over a hundred thousand dollars by the time both my kids are done with undergraduate school. You'd better bet, with the prospect of spending that kind of money, I want my kid to make sure the school they pick is the right fit (none in our own state have the reputation in their chosen fields that their current schools do), and sometimes the only way to do that is to visit the schools. Some schools we visited were immediately knocked off their lists, before the tour was even over. Did all this traveling guarantee 100% fit? No, but it sure eliminated some schools from their list. One school was so impressed by one daughter's application/visit/audition that they offered her substantial scholarship. Another daughter also received substantial scholarship to a school she might not have applied to had we not visited. She will graduate from that school this May. Someday I should sit down and add up the costs of college had my kids not gotten the scholarships they did... then take a nice vacation with that money!</p>

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<p>I think some of this is understanding the process and some is attitude- we defintely wasted some money along the way with the first kid- doing things "every body" else told us/her to do. Though we did few visits, just the tests & apps were more than I expected.</p>

<p>On #2 we began compiling a list early, there were some schools she had seen on #1s visits, but mainly we added visits to other life events which were happening so that it was a two for one deal and did not feel so very expensive to travel. D had several far away schools and not one was visited w/o admissions or a likely letter in hand, yet only 1 resulted in a trip soley for the purpose of seeing that school; other visits were added on to a sport team trip, a school club trip, and a family visit trip, so we did not feel like the entire cost was the school, it was just the add on cost to something we would have done anyway.</p>

<p>D did not want to visit any place she was not in, as she did not want to waste her time with maybes ;)</p>