<p>This thread has me pondering something I’ve wondered about in the past…has anyone besides me ever questioned the real, legitimate value of a recommendation letter in the college (be it undergraduate or graduate) process? I mean think about it…letters are typically around 3/4 of a page single-spaced. Students have the freedom to ask whomever they so choose, so presumably they won’t be asking anyone whose class they performed poorly in or with whom the did not have a good rapport. Sure there are a few teachers who will submit an unflattering letter, but I must think those are few and far between. At least in high school teachers typically have a year to get to know the student in a smaller environment so they can add some personal touches attesting to work ethic, character, etc., but in reality, I think they still all more or less say the same thing and often merely highlight components on the resume. As for grad school, I think it’s ludicrous to have students in larger state schools, for instance, ask a professor who barely knows them to write a letter on their behalf and use this as part of a determinant for med school, law school, etc. Not only is awkward for the student to have to ask, but it’s inconvenient for the teacher to have to do it when they rarely know the student that well. (I suppose there’s the opportunity in certain very small LAC-type settings, but most of my daughter’s classes have at least 100+ students. Furthermore, the professor generally has the student in class for what, 4 months? Even if the student makes a point of visiting during office hours I find it difficult to believe the professor has a true grasp on the student’s character.) Your thoughts?</p>
<p>At this point, I don’t think your DD has a great chance that the letter is going to be done properly. It’s game over. Have her got to someone else. This is ridiculous and at this point the onus is on your daughter. It’s clear that her pick for the rec is not working out.</p>
<p>The usual thing to do when you want a great letter of recommendation is to provide the recommender in writing of what the position for which you are being recommended, and a brief outline of some things for the writer to consider, so that it makes it very easy to write and no salient info is accidently forgotten. And then veru specific directions on how to send, or an addressed stamped envelope.</p>
<p>I’ve known folks who have not done this, been handed the rec letter or a copy of it, and it has been the most generic of generic. You gotta put the effort into these things if you want the end result. </p>
<p>In this situation, the prof clearly does not want to do this for whatever reason, and it’s degenerated to this. I think the OP’s dd should just drop it. Should have dropped it a while ago.</p>
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<p>The right question to ask is why is your D/you so fixated on getting a rec from a flaky Prof at this point? </p>
<p>The scarce time left would be better spent seeking out alternative recommenders ASAP. </p>
<p>Even assuming an LOR is written/sent out…it probably won’t be as good as it should be. </p>
<p>Moreover, having the student writing out an LOR and merely having a Prof sign off on has the risk that if found out, will most likely be considered a serious breach of academic integrity on both your D and the Prof’s part. </p>
<p>Especially if said Prof checks off that student didn’t see that LOR…not exactly truthful when the student typed it out. At my LAC and others with honor codes…this would definitely be considered an honor violation which could result in judicial penalties that may remain on the student’s judicial conduct record well after the student graduates.</p>
<p>this professor sounds legitimately impaired. not flakey, impaired, either alcoholic, or mentally ill. I hope your d has located her alternate by now.</p>
<p>I can’t imagine taking a risk on what this professor might write in the recommendation. Assuming one ever gets written.</p>
<p>@ jc 40 Letters are what make or break admissions to PHD programs. They are the first thing the faculty on the admissions committee read. I kid you not. If your letters are lukewarm, forget about it. They are more important than the rest of the admissions package in the academic world.</p>
<p>jc, I go to an extremely large state school (40k+ students) and am close to several professors in both of my majors. Once you get in to upper-level classes you tend to have much smaller classes and your interests tend to bring you to the same profs over and over. I really don’t know anyone who had a problem getting profs.</p>
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I think that’s pretty farfetched in this instance. First of all this prof asked for a draft (and from what I’ve learned the last few days, this is less unusual than one would think), second, she has had every opportunity to use it reject it, or edit it, and last, if a prof adopts another’s draft as her own recommendation and signs off on it, then it becomes her recommendation.</p>
<p>If nothing is forthcoming by tomorrow morning, D will move on to Plan B. But let me be honest, D is a B+/A- student. She wasn’t a superstar in any other prof’s class, nor did she do any research projects for any prof. There’s only one other prof with whom she took more than one class, and he’s notorious for not remembering who’s in his class during the semester, much less afterwards. So the prof she chose was by far the best option objectively speaking, and Plan B will be a big step down, besides requiring that someone be willing to really expedite the recommendation, so she is not anxious to bail on Plan A.</p>
<p>BTW, just a reminder that we aren’t talking about a PhD program here.</p>
<p>if Professor A signs off on d’s lor I can understand sticking with that, however if she sends anything sight unseen, I would not agree as she seriously does not seem to be functioning normally. her thinking is rather bizarre, and I would report this “concern” to the administration as she may actually need some help.</p>
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<p>Apparently that’s a critical distinction, something I didn’t know before reading this thread.</p>
<p>Someday your DD will probably laugh about the whole thing. I mean really, this lady is really batty. It’s hard to imagine she actually conducts classes, grades papers, attends departmental meetings, publishes papers, etc. Boggles the mind really.</p>
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<p>I’ve known plenty of undergrad classmates with worse grades than your D and/or who didn’t do research projects for Profs who ended up getting stellar recs from more than 3 Profs. </p>
<p>Moreover, the fact she’s applying to a Masters where they’re willing to accept 2 professional recs means the stakes aren’t as high as would be the case with PhD programs or some highly competitive academic masters programs. </p>
<p>As for how to get Profs to notice you enough to write good recs…</p>
<p>Some from my own experience: good/excellent work, actively participate regularly in class so you’re making positive contributions to class discussions/debates*, take advantage of Professor office hours not only for academic questions…but also to chat/hang out so the Prof is better able to know you as a unique individual rather than merely another student, if there are department/class sponsored social/academic events…attend and actively socialize, etc. </p>
<p>Of course, I’m assuming the student interested in cultivating meaningful student/professor relationships are doing it for the purpose of actually getting to know the Profs as unique interesting individuals in their own right…not merely getting better grades and LORs. </p>
<p>Granted, doing the above is much easier at an LAC or smaller LAC-like university than a large research university as I found when taking classes at two Ivies…but the same principles still apply. It just requires a bit more effort which I acknowledge is hard for some…even though it wasn’t the case IME.</p>
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<li>A.K.A.: Don’t be too quiet/passive…just coming in and out of class won’t facilitate the Prof’s ability to know you well…or to elicit his/her interest toward that end.</li>
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<p>The OP’s daughter is applying for a position in a Master’s program in a field different from her major I believe. That kind of changes the situation from the “typical.”</p>
<p>My DD went to a “large” public university (though rather small when compared to my alma mater, but it’s a well known and highly regarded institution). She did not have the experience you are referencing. She got to know her mentor very well, and as stated in a previous post, this university really encourages the mentor role. If you are taking multiple classes in a particular discipline and you are immersing yourself in it, you are not just taking a class or two. You are doing research, you are attending seminars, you are going to conferences and speaker events, etc. You are networking and getting as much out of the department as you possibly can. If you do all that, you WILL get to know various professors quite well. There will be no problem as long as you are making the most of your time there and not just fulfilling obligations. Now that I think about it, even at my HUGE flagship, I got to know the small world of my own major quite well. </p>
<p>That my D’s “mentor” made the effort to call all of schools at which she interviewed speaks very well of her school and how they advocate for their students. According to D, they all know each other, so a good recommendation actually does mean something. It’s really not just a few paragraphs on a page.</p>
<p>This is a Ph.D program I should stress…</p>
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jc40, I can tell you my dh who reads Md/Phd files reads recommendation letters very carefully. Usually these are from labs where the kids have done research and he always follows up on whatever is said in the letter to see if the students actually seem to understand and remember the work they have supposedly done in the labs. Surprisingly often they don’t seem to have a clue how their work fits into the bigger picture.</p>
<p>As for getting a letter from a teacher where you didn’t get an A, my (high school) son’s math teacher wrote a wonderful letter despite giving him a B+.</p>
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<p>Heh. </p>
<p>One of my strongest HS recs came from a homeroom teacher who had a horrid impression of me from my rebellious freshman-sophomore phase and tried to “advise” me to transfer back to my neighborhood high school freshman year. </p>
<p>Another came from a teacher who gave me the following grades in 2 different classes C+, B.</p>
<p>When son applied for MA programs, his letters of rec. were confidential. Professors either submitted them directly via online links or they were picked up by son in sealed envelopes with a stamp or signature over the seal. </p>
<p>This drama should have been handled months ago. Daughter should have taken charge of the situation and gone to another professor for a recommendation. A senior in college should have enough sense to actively work on a Plan B in order to complete and submit all grad apps by stated deadlines. It’s much easier to blame the flakey professor than it is to accept the fact that daughter did not adapt to the situation and look for a solution to the problem—that is, ask another professor many weeks or months ago.</p>
<p>This isn’t the end of the world. If your daughter doesn’t attend grad school in the fall, she can always re-apply and start at a later date. Let it go and let her figure it out. It’s a good learning experience. Always have a plan B.</p>
<p>PS–I totally agree with Cobrat. Getting an “A” in a class should not be the main criteria for selecting a professor to write a recommendation.</p>
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<p>Thank goodness as if that was an actual requirement, I’d be hard pressed to find any recs considering the abysmal state of my HS GPA. :)</p>
<p>The professor wanted your dau to email her hourly to <em>hopefully</em> help her get the LOR out?? Thats bizarre! Is it not clear that someone ELSE should be writing this LOR?</p>
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@jym626, did you not read my post 108? Also, folks, talking about what my D should have done a week or a month or three years ago is not terribly helpful to her at this point. However, I do think much of the recent advice on this thread about cultivating relationships with professors should be conveyed to all college freshmen. There are many students who are shy or introverted or just not adept at establishing relationships in college that will benefit them in the future. (It’s kind like networking in the working world–some are great at it, some are terrible.) Some guidance for those who don’t do that sort of thing naturally–with an emphasis on why it’s important to make those connections–would be a great subject for another thread. I’m afraid the useful info posted here is too deeply buried to reach the right audience.</p>
<p>Yes I read your post (and your very harsh ones to that poster appealing to Berkeley, but I digress…) It should have been painfully clear, especially after the “email me hourly and I might get to it” that your dau is wasting precious time she does not have. Why do you think this is not helpful? It is exactly what she should do!! She should not waste another minute if she is up against or has missed a deadline. To have to get another prof to write a letter under such short notice is really unfair to that second professor, and the clock is ticking.</p>
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<p>I think the point of that is to try to get across to her that a change of course that should have happened in December is all the more essential to make now. To this very minute, apparently, D continues to insist on the false and self-destructive path that this professor, and only this professor, can and must help her.</p>
<p>Did you ever read the Berenstain Bears to her? Grampa drove his wagon down a muddy road and instead of turning back he insisted on going forward–and the wagon got permanently stuck in the mud. “But I learned a valuable lesson. When you are on the wrong road–turn back!”</p>
<p>Note that a self-drafted recommendation is likely to be recognizable and not likely to be as effective as one genuinely written by an adult.</p>
<p>I agree with the others that your D is a good student, has nothing to apologize for, and would do well to free herself at once from the self-destructive idea that only this one professor can and must help her.</p>