<p>The average salary for those occupations is not over $100K. It is for lawyers, even in Arizona.</p>
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<p>Again, BC or Fordham make zero sense for someone who wants to work in the southwest. Fordham makes no sense for someone who is not exclusively interested in NYC.</p>
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<p>Because not very many lawyers have any ties to the area, went to school there or took the AZ bar? </p>
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<p>There are something like 1000 firms in Phoenix. I’m pretty confident that they hire more than a total of 40 new attorneys a year.</p>
<p>If you look at the NALP directory, there are 23 “big Law” firms in Arizona, where the starting entry level salary is 115-125k and some firms with multiple offices.</p>
<p>Even though Arizona is considered a tier I school (ranked # 40), if you are going to pursue this just go in with your eyes open as only 20% of the students at Arizona , secure jobs through OCI.</p>
<p>?! There may not be 1000 firms combined in the entire nation… do the math.</p>
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<p>Dude, first, that is not average starting salary, it is all practicing attorneys. Also, it excludes those bunches of law grads and attorneys who are unemployed, or are working as contract/temporary attorneys. Those salaries are largely only attainable if you can get a firm job out of law school, build your resmue/work experience, etc. And, attending a low tier law school presents a huge risk that you won’t land a decent firm job out of school. The bottom line is that unless you manage to get a big/mid law gig, you won’t ever touch that much money as a lawyer. Learn to interpret raw data in the proper context.</p>
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<p>The point remains Fordham or BC beat out ASU Law in job prospects. Fordham places around 40% of its graduates into firms, while ASU’s figure seems like around 20%. A job in NYC >>> no job in Arizona. Law school is all about the investment, increasing your odds of getting a firm job should be anyone’s top priority. </p>
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<p>Thanks for this info. This info implies that someone who wants to 1) attend ASU Law and practice in Arizona, 2) wants a high enough salary, should be prepared to rank at least top 15-20% of the class in order to have a strong chance at attainig such firm jobs. If you ask me, that is 80-85% chance of failure of accomplishing that goal, which is not a good bet.</p>
<p>Right, because I was talking about eventually making six figures, not starting at six figures.</p>
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<p>Sure, and with more than 1000 firms in the area and no desperate need for a high starting salary to pay off loans, that’s not an unrealistic aspiration.</p>
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<p>Not in the southwest. </p>
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<p>ASU reports a similar percentage. They may be fudging the numbers, but they’re probably not overstating it by 100%.</p>
<p>i realize no one has a crystal ball but i tend to agree more with zaprowsdower in this specific situation and answered more of my original question. of course, generally going to a top school is always better if your thinking solely about job prospects on a grand scale. but, ive made a few connections down here and they all speak highly of ASU law and hiring ASU law grads. </p>
<p>my original question was aimed at the fact that in the SW it seems ASU is regarded as a good school for local jobs. im sure there are major firms that recruit from top schools but it’s not like i’m debating between stanford and ASU and wanting to settle in Los Angeles. </p>
<p>i just wanted to see if anyone who had graduated law school or was currently in law school had some inside info on if a 163 was a tough score to get on the lsat since my gpa will probably be fine. </p>
<p>in addition, i was curious to know how likely it would be for me to get a job (and i know that’s a super vague question). obviously firms in the NE look for people from top schools because there is a high concentration of good schools and graduates in the area. the west coast also seems super competitive. most of the people ive met down here with six figure jobs went to ASU–meaning there is a lot of ASU pride in Phoenix which I was thinking would work to my advantage. </p>
<p>I’m aware that the big paying jobs (115 starting salary?!, wow!) are going to be looking at candidates from all over the country. i have a hard time believing, though, that my options are “likely” going to be looking for a 40k/year job or competing for a 115k/year job. those are just too wide of margins. there are no entry level associate jobs between 60-70k? ever?</p>
<p>my question was related to ASU and SW job prospects, not ASU and job prospects in general. it seems LazyKid isn’t even IN law school yet and has just heard stories form friends at NE schools. Just an FYI: I’m sure the competition is insanely fierce for people looking at legal jobs in the NE. All of the top schools are there so firms have their pick.</p>
<p>This is equivalent to asking someone if scoring a 1900 on SAT is difficult. It depends on person. You obviously need to see how you would perform by taking actual timed practice tests.</p>
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<p>Simply put, all legal jobs outside of Big/mid-law pay like $hit. Be prepared to handle this truth. You are right; I am not in law school yet. I am taking a gap year to work as a paralegal at BigLaw firm, in order to build my resume, take time off from school, and ride out the tough economy for a bit. I’ve interacted with many attorneys, law students, and some hiring committee at firms and have a rough outlook of the market and the credentials firms look for in candidates, etc. Take everything with grain of salt, tho.</p>
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<p>Like I mentioned, I would estimate that you would need to be close to top of your class to stand a healthy chance at landing a respectable firm job. Here, I am not talking about those personal injury firms paying 40k a year. I am talking about legit law firms. Also, I would also estimate that nearly half or more of graduating ASU Law students end up unemployed. Again, this is just my estimate, but keep in mind the legal market is beyond terrible now.</p>
<p>1) The high average salary for practicing lawyers is scewed by high earners - Big/mid-law attorneys, high paying in-house attorneys, some government jobs in six figs, etc. Outside of these select areas of law, the pay is absolutely awful. No, you won’t likely to ever touch six figs working personal injury or family divorce law, you would top out at like 60-70k. Any high paying/decent law jobs require several years of Big/mid-law experience. You strike out on Biglaw, you won’t ever touch those cushy six fig in-house or federal gov jobs, much less other serious law firm jobs. Good luck trying to score a legit corporate legal gig with 5 year resume from personal injury work. </p>
<p>2) My friend is a rising 3L at Wash U St Louis Law. (top 30) He estimated that around half the recent graduates graduated without any legal paying job lined up. These folks will struggle to land a legal job that even pays 40-50k. Around 15-20% graduated with decent firm jobs. Others got 40-50k jobs in a variety of fields, including PI, personal injury, divorce law, etc. I can’t imagine ASU Law placement being any better than this. Like I said, at ASU Law, it will be an uphill battle for someone to even get a JOB.</p>
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<p>I thought we were talking about those serious corporate law firms, not those personal injury type of firms with 3 attorneys in it.</p>
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<p>Uhm, why would anyone then go to law school? At ASU Law, most people will graduate unemployed, and among those employed, many will make close to 40-45k a year. Better not to bother with law school at all get a job in sales or marketing straight out of UG. And, no, not all of those 1000 firms hire entry level attorneys. </p>
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<p>Maybe ASU’s figure is 40% ‘employed’ - including all those 40k personal injury jobs.</p>
<p>So, to clarify, your estimate is based on your friend’s guesstimate of the employment rate of a class he’s not part of at a different school in a completely different part of the country?</p>
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<p>I forgot that only biglaw firms are “serious” firms.</p>
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<p>Because they want to be a lawyer? Because they realize they’ll probably make a pretty decent living over the long run, notwithstanding the 0Ls who are certain anyone who doesn’t get a biglaw job is doomed to eat out of garbage cans and panhandle until they die penniless in a gutter? </p>
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<p>If half of them hired a single attorney each, that would just about create enough jobs for everyone who passes the AZ bar every year.</p>
<p>Talking about the spread of misinformation here. If the legal jobs were so plentiful and it was that easy to just get jobs, why do you think there are thousands of unemployed lawyers along with recent law grads who are straight up unemployed? Many of those small, personal injury type of firms don’t hire entry level attorneys since they can’t afford the training cost, don’t need additional lawyers, etc. Hence, those in the bottom half of the class at ASU Law can’t just assume that those 40k legal jobs are waiting come graduation. </p>
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<p>Many lawyers and law grads today wish they never bothered with law school. Many are ignorant of the legal industry and its pay structure. Many assume that getting a JD is a sure way to get a decent living. But, many lawyers today don’t make any more than a waitor does. It is exactly this type of misinformation/ unrealistic sense of employment, etc that lead many to go to law schools, even the low-ranked ones. I may be a 0L, but I am now working as a BigLaw paralegal. I know exactly how the pay structure is in BigLaw, its recruiting, attorneys’ exit options, etc. Most, if not all, of decently paying legal jobs are either 1) Big/mid-law, or 2) require several years of Big/mid-law experience doing corporate/ litigation work. You see, people don’t just do BigLaw for the paycheck, they also do it for exit ops.</p>
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<p>No offense intended, yet, I would be careful to point out that it is exactly this kind of thinking that is the real problem. Many $hit law schools advertise on their career statistics, “90% employed at graduation, 100k median salary.” Anyone semi-intelligent can do a ten-minute google search and figure out a more accurate description of the salary, job placements, etc according to each law school. Like I mentioned like a hundred times, you strike out on legit law firms donig corporate/lit, etc, you won’t ever touch that much money as a lawyer. The legal industry is very much ‘feast or famine’. Get real.</p>
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<p>ASU is not higher ranked than Wash U. And, noting that Wash U grads have access to St. Louis and Chicago, yet the horrible placements, you would be nuts to assume that ASU does any better.</p>
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<p>Biglaw and other ‘midlaw’ firms doing corporate/ litigation work are rightfully ‘serious’ firms, not those 3-lawyer firms doing family divorce/ personal injury work with 40k a year paycheck.</p>
<p>It is not necessarily going to be easy. It will probably involve more than signing up for OCI interviews online, having a few 20-minute interviews and getting an offer based on your GPA. A lot of graduates are unemployed because they did exactly what you suggested, flocking to oversaturated big cities gunning for biglaw, and they struck out.</p>
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<p>None of which is at all relevant to smaller firm hiring in small markets. If someone were going to ASU because they wanted biglaw, or if they were taking out significant loans to attend, that would be a mistake.</p>
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<p>Except that this is the median for all lawyers in the country, most of whom are not in biglaw, and have never been in biglaw. </p>
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<p>Rankings really don’t matter much outside of the T14 and outside of biglaw or highly-selective government or public interest positions. Hiring in small markets tends to be very regional. You are likely to have a lot more success reaching out to partners who are ASU alumni as an ASU grad who went to ASU undergrad and has lived in the area for a while than as a Wash U or Georgetown or whatever grad blindly sending resumes. This usually comes as a shock to law students who can’t believe the US News rankings are not the most important thing in the world.</p>
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<p>St. Louis is maybe a third of Phoenix’s size and everyone has “access” to Chicago in that they can send resumes there. Thinking that Wash U would give you a leg up over Illinois, Notre Dame, Iowa, Minnesota, UW, etc. grads in Chicago would be kind of dumb.</p>
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<p>Right, I mean, unless you’ve worked in biglaw, I’m not sure you can even really call yourself a lawyer.</p>
<p>There is a series of possible reasons that lead law students to strike out. Main reasons include weak GPA, weak school, lackluster resume/work experience, dumb bidding strategy, and unimpressive interviewing skills. I don’t think attending a school near large legal market is a disadantage, or even a minor contributor to the cause of someone striking out. And, it is a good thing that someone’s gunning for biglaw. At least you are trying to give yourself the best shot at attaining a coveted job that could lead to a financially sound career.</p>
<p>Further, you seem to ignore that there are tons of those small law firms in cities like NYC. I can’t help but think that there are more of those “$hitlaw” firms in NYC compared to Phoenix. Then, following your logic, those who strike out OCI in NYC market should never be unemployed and get even those legal jobs paying 40k in NYC or Boston or something. Yet, many law grads are straight up unemployed. This tells you that many of those small personal-injury type of firms don’t hire much of entry level attorneys at all, nation-wide. And, it is an uphill battle for a law student from a low-ranked school to even land those 40k legal gigs. Hence, why put yourself in such a risky situation? </p>
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<p>You see, there are tons of people that make that exact mistake you are citing; attending a low ranked school in a weak market thinking of “90% employed and 100k median salary”, or even “median lawyer salary = 100k”. I have yet to hear from you how those who don’t land decent firm jobs (doing corporate or litigation work at Big/mid-law) can crack six figs, as you claimed earlier. Sure, there could be a small fraction of electricians, elementrary school teachers, waitors, or even janitors who can crack six figs later into the career, but I’d think it is exception, not the rule. Suppose you start with 40k personal injury legal gig out of ASU. Yet, most high paying legal jobs require lawyers with substantive corporate/ litigation experience from big/mid-law firms. So, how in the world are these “$hit” firm lawyers going to ever lateral to a more lucrative law job? Or, are you prepared to argue that these folks can hit six figs by going solo?</p>
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<p>I would like to see the salary breakdown according to lawyer’s job - type of firms they attend, type of work involved, federal gov, etc. You can’t just look at a raw data like that and draw broad conclusion - when legal market is pretty much ‘feast or famine’. Many lawyers make good money, hence scewing the avg or ‘median’ salary upwards. Many more lawyers make $hit money, or no money at all, and they tend to change professions. Outside of Big/mid-law, in-house (which requires big/mid law exp), select government agencies, and some PI gigs, there is NO WAY that a lawyer can touch a six fig, unless s/he is the partner of a ‘small’ firm and knows how to make it rain.</p>
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<p>Again, why can’t these unemployed Wash U or Georgetown grads get those small firm jobs in St. Louis or DC using alumni connection? </p>
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<p>You may be a lawyer, but you won’t likely to ever touch six figs.</p>
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<p>I never said Wash U grads would have a leg up over those said schools. Wash U gets some Chicago recruiting at OCI, that is what I meant. And, how about Emory? Like half of recent graduates there graduated unemployed. Are you now just going to say that it’s because Atlanta market is smaller than Phoenix? The point I am making is that law school is a disastrous decision for many, and thus people should think long and hard before attending a law school such as ASU.</p>
<p>It also gives you a great shot at falling short and ending up miserable and in debt. Looking at law school as a biglaw lottery ticket is a bad idea.</p>
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<p>And there are a lot more unemployed graduates competing with you. Plus the biglaw firms in the area have huge turnover rates. The issue isn’t the sheer number of jobs, it’s the number of jobs relative to the number of people looking for work.</p>
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<p>I don’t even know what you’re responding to. I pointed out that biglaw hiring in major markets was nothing like smaller firm hiring in secondary markets, so whatever you knew about biglaw recruiting wasn’t relevant.</p>
<p>And the point I am making is that you should actually think about it, rather than assuming that anyone who doesn’t get biglaw will die penniless.</p>
<p>In a good economy, even a low T-14 places over 50% at OCI. Law school is an investment. Either you go to a school that helps you land a good gig, or you don’t even bother with those $hit schools and get a job out of UG.</p>
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<p>If you are so willing, I would be interested in hearing about ASU’s exact job placements. And, an ASU law grad folding clothes at GAP doesn’t count as ‘employed’ to me. I want to see their ‘legal lawyer job’ placement, and maybe I will agree with your point that ASU is worth attending.</p>
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<p>Let’s not forget that a bunch of people enter law schools uninformed of true employment statistics and placements, hence, they make a mistake of going to a law school believing “90% employed with 100k median salary” or “lawyers median salary = six fig”. The stats you are posting are dangerous to read for many clueless 0Ls who may think getting a power lawyer career is a strong possibility out of a low ranked law school. In truth, they will be lucky to make 50k a year.</p>
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<p>Dude, strike out at OCI = kiss of death. No matter how much you deny it, the pay is terrible outside of biglaw and select midlaw. And, you have limited career upshot since you can’t build marektable skills that law firms would teach you. Many lawyers may actually die penniless - those bunches of unemployed law grads who are now working at Starbucks with six digit loans, they’re screwed for life. Personally, I think attending ASU Law is a TERRIBLE decision. I wouldn’t attend it despite a full ride. It is not worth 3 years of opportunity cost and my time.</p>
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<p>Dude, are you serious? The website you referred to reads: “To help identify the best estimates of what lawyers earn across the county, weve culled the most current salary data reported to the Bureau of Labor Statistics on employed lawyerssuch as associates, government attorneys and corporate counselalong with additional government statistics on potential income influencers like population growth and the locations of Fortune 1000 company headquarters to give our readers a snapshot of their local legal landscape.” </p>
<p>They are only factoring in big/mid law asssociates, in -house counsel attorneys (at Fortune 1000 companies), and select government attorneys to calculate the median salay. In this study, those bunches of unemployed law grads, those $hit lawyers making 35-40k a year in personal injury, and those contract/temporary attorneys’ salaries aren’t factored in. </p>
<p>And, of course, the ‘median’ salary for lawyers are only relevant when you can actually get a job as a lawyer after law school. Out of ASU Law, you run into a significant risk that you won’t ever find a job as a lawyer. </p>
<p>Like I said, believing that kind of garbage data such as “all lawyers’ median salary = 100k” is like believing a $hit Law School career placement advertisement saying “90% grads employed at graduation, with 100k median starting salary.”</p>
<p>I think you can rest assured that you’ve made it impossible for us to forget how clueless 0Ls tend to be.</p>
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<p>Unless you get a job outside of OCI. Which is close to impossible for biglaw and firms outside the market your school is in, but pretty far from impossible in general.</p>
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<p>And I would certainly never recommend it for someone whose belief that only biglaw attorneys make any money (or do “serious” or “legit” work) borders on religious obsession. But not everyone is gunning for NYC biglaw, and not everyone who doesn’t work in biglaw is poor.</p>
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<p>No, they are not. They are looking at “employed” lawyers, which is to say that equity partners (who are not employees of their firms) are excluded.</p>
<p>to say that you will be stuck at 40-50k your entire life as a lawyer if you don’t land a premium job post grad is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Many legal positions offer advancement depending on experience, work ethic, and success.</p>
<p>As stated before the median salary reported by lawyers is 90 - 120k, much higher than the average position. Are these all BIG LAW employees? No. Did they all graduate from t14 law schools? No. It is clear you are severely underestimating the mid career salary for the average attorney.</p>
<p>If you WANT to be a Lawyer and can get into a good school (not just t14, but a good regional school that is tier 1) and either</p>
<p>A: Have the money to afford law school</p>
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<p>B: Get a scholarship/stipend to not be suffocated with debt</p>
<p>Don’t waste your time with lazykid. He somehow bought the mentality that only NE BIG LAW jobs are the way to make serious money and that you must attend a t14 school to do so. </p>
<p>I am still laughing at him legitimately thinking that as a lawyer you will likely be stuck making 45k from graduation until death. I know many many lawyers recently hired from schools no where near the t14 (think UK, UL) making more than that and also many mid career lawyers making 6 figure salaries from these same schools. They all told me you have to work your ass off the first several years but achieving financial success is extremely possible</p>