Thoughts on job-searching and careers, 4.5 years after graduating college

Career Opportunities & Internships
1

<p>I have some time today, so I just wanted to pass along some thoughts on job-searching and careers. </p>

<p>I graduated college in May 2008, with good grades from an average university, fluency in Spanish, a BA in economics, lived in a large city, solid extracurriculars, and a one-semester internship at a small investment fund. </p>

<p>In 2008, the year that I graduated college, the U.S. economy LOST 2.6 million jobs.
In 2011, the U.S. economy GAINED 1.6 million jobs. </p>

<p>In 2012, we've had positive job growth every month.</p>

<p>Look, the job situation won't be ideal, in my opinion, for at least another few years. But it's far better than it was when I graduated college, so be grateful that you're in a (slowly) growing economy. </p>

<p>The main reason that I'm writing this article is just in case someone can read this, and maybe it will help their job search and career path.</p>

<p>The following are my thoughts on careers and job-searches:</p>

<p>-While job-searching, LinkedIn should be your best friend, and I've found no need for a premium membership. Get on there, find every single recruiter in your area* (both at staffing agencies and that work for companies), and "connect" with them (by adding them as a friend). According to a quick search on the site, there are at least 300,000 recruiters in America. Try to contact with as many of those recruiters as possible. These people get paid to put people into jobs, so more than any other stranger, they are interested in getting you a job. If they get you a job, they get paid, as simple as that.</p>

<p>(* - You can try connecting with 'out of area' recruiters, but as an entry-level worker, your odds of getting an 'out of area' job are low)</p>

<p>So, you add a recruiter, find out their email address, and email them your resume. Call them 30 minutes later, and try to talk to them. Recruiters are often so swamped by tons of people emailing resumes that they forget to get back to you. Yet if you can get a recruiter on the phone, they're almost uniformly friendly. Tell them about the types of roles that interest you, what you're looking to do, etc. </p>

<p>Here's the key though: once you get done talking to one recruiter, immediately forget them. Recruiters LOVE to act as if they'll get you a job right away. Yet the reality is that recruiters will only find jobs for 5-10% of the candidates that they ever talk to. </p>

<p>You absolutely need to talk to dozens / hundreds of recruiters as long as you're job searching. </p>

<p>Once you've met with a recruiter for the first time, check in with them once a month. Keep an Excel file of the recruiters that you've talked to.</p>

<p>-Let's say that you really want to work at "Company XYZ". Going on LinkedIn and connecting with a recruiter at that company is a terrific idea. .... Using LinkedIn to try to randomly connect with employees at that company is generally not a good idea. It's often a waste of time, and, worse, you might get blackballed at that company, so be careful. </p>

<p>-The majority of "professional" jobs out of college often suck and can be quite boring. Lots of data entry, staring at Excel all day, etc. The best way to get through these is to have a clear idea of what job you really want. </p>

<p>-Be aggressive in your job-search. The people that rise to the top don't just sit around and wait, they're always keeping an ear open to new opportunities. Do the same.</p>

<p>-Get involved in volunteering / young professional associations etc. These are phenomenal ways to hear about new jobs and build strong networks. </p>

<p>-If you're in college now and studying "business" or "economics" or anything else, I highly recommend getting an accounting degree as well. There are FAR more openings, especially right out of college, for "accounting" than there are for "business" or "economics", and the pay is better for accounting.</p>

<p>-Having said that, I know lots of people that did "boring cubicle jobs" (accounting, data analyst, etc.) for a few years and are now starting their own businesses, doing things entirely different, etc. ... A lot of my friends at 27 seem to care far less about their salary than they did at 22. </p>

<p>-Having knowledge of programming skills is a quick way to get great-paying jobs. Teach yourself if you have to. </p>

<p>-Tell everyone you know that you're job-searching, yet realize that the large majority of people you know won't be able to help you.</p>

<p>-Live with your parents for as long as you can stand it. The average college grad nationwide is only making apprx $30k, and even if you're making $45-$55k, that money can go real quickly. If you're able to live at home for a year or two after college, and pay off any loans/debt, or get $10k-$30k saved up, your mid-late 20s will be awesome.</p>

<p>-Ha, having said that, the city that you live in is EXTREMELY important, especially if you see yourself climbing the ladder at big corporations and depending on what industry you want to be in. </p>

<p>If you really want to be in entertainment, move to LA. There are plenty of acceptable neighborhoods where you can rent a room at a house for $500-$700. Work in restaurants, etc., and go after your dream. Better to do it in your early 20s than once your saddled with a life that you hate. </p>

<p>Depending on your industry, living in small / mid-size cities is really hard to do that way. And especially when you're "entry level", it's quite rare to have a company interested in phone-interviewing "out of towners", let alone flying you out for an interview. Be very cautious about paying to fly for an interview. If a company really wants you, they'll make sure that they can interview you. </p>

<p>-Results matter. The most successful "office workers" that I know are the ones who fight through the boredom to still deliver high-quality reports to their boss. ... This is the most difficult part for some people. They studied really hard in college, worked really hard as a server at a restaurant ... and then get an office job after college, get bored out of their minds, and do mediocre work. Try your hardest to produce great work, but, there's no magic bullet for this. ... And if you're stuck after a few years and not killing it in any office job, 1) try to get a job at a company that really interests you OR 2) get out of office work. </p>

<p>-(Assuming your boss is a good person) ... When your boss is being tough on you about producing less than great work, remember why. He has a boss that's been probably tougher on him/her. Have some compassion for your boss, and realize that there's a reasonable chance that they're not in their dream job either. </p>

<p>-You're not too old to start a new career, if you really think that it will make you happier. A fair amount of people move into nursing / medical school / dental school / teaching in their late 20s. </p>

<p>-Don't hold grudges. Nearly everyone that you talk to in regards to your job-search is probably going to be a let-down. Recruiters that butter you up and then ignore you for months. Companies that do the same to you. .... I've never been particularly upset when I get rejected for a job. But it can get extremely annoying when people promise to call the next day, etc., and never do so. </p>

<p>-Be nice to everyone. You might not hear for a recruiter from a year, then you'll get a call out of the blue saying "The company wants to do a phone interview with you tomorrow". Don't burn bridges, and don't be surprised when good stuff like this happens. </p>

<p>-Even if you feel like you're job-searching really hard, there's definitely someone out there that's doing it with more effort. There should be many days when you spend 8-10 hours a day on LinkedIn, selling yourself, etc. </p>

<p>-Having said that, try to have some sort of job (retail, restaurant, babysitting, etc.) or active volunteering while you're looking for a "real job". Income aside, it's nice to be a productive member of society. </p>

<p>-Search the job boards (mainly Indeed.com), but never spend more than an hour a day doing this. </p>

<p>-Many resumes suck. Seek out lots of advice on this. Find people a few years older that are successful and ask to see what their resumes look like. Have a kick-ass resume. </p>

<p>-Stay out of debt as much as possible. Debt is horrible, and can highly limit your career limitations. If you have savings, you can take a good long-term job (even if it pays lower for now), or you can move to a city that you really want to live in, and survive for a few months until you find a great job. </p>

<p>-And here's the final, most important point about how to find happiness in your career: </p>

<p>FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WILL REALLY ENJOY DOING</p>

<p>I know so many friends that took whatever job they got right out of college, enjoyed the money and the 20-something lifestyle, gave no thoughts to their careers, and now they're stuck in boring jobs and generally unhappy in their lives, without any clue of what they want to do next. .... I know others who had a very specific goal about what they wanted to do, took low-paying jobs along the way, and now are happy in their careers. </p>

<p>Perhaps you'll stumble upon a job that you like, it's possible. But it's also rare. </p>

<p>Simply put, the happiest people I know are ones that had a really clear idea of the type of work that they wanted to do. </p>

<hr>

<p>If anyone has any questions, let me know.</p>

2

<p>Thanks for the advice!</p>

<p>As someone in an unemployed situation this will surely help.</p>

<p>What do you mean by only spend an hour on job search websites? Also how effective have you seen websites like Indeed and Monster?</p>

3

<p>“Get on there, find every single recruiter in your area* (both at staffing agencies and that work for companies), and “connect” with them (by adding them as a friend). According to a quick search on the site, there are at least 300,000 recruiters in America. Try to contact with as many of those recruiters as possible. These people get paid to put people into jobs, so more than any other stranger, they are interested in getting you a job. If they get you a job, they get paid, as simple as that.”</p>

<p>I actually thought about doing this myself a few weeks back. I was not going to focus specifically on LinkedIn, but I was going to contact/apply to tons of recruiters through any way possible. But then I read some threads/topics and articles online recommending not to do this (but then again, much of what the same people writing these articles actually recommend has not worked - so maybe as a last resort it is best to ignore everyone and just try anything lol). The reason they recommended against this was because, according to them, many companies will automatically reject a candidate if the candidate is submitted to them by more than one recruiter. This is because many companies are concerned about avoiding legal issues (even if it is a defendable position) where a recruiter essentially claims “ownership” of the candidate over the other recruiter. </p>

<p>I read multiple examples where whole hiring teams/committees thought they had found the best candidate for the job, but then rejected him/her and accepted an inferior candidate, because the original superior candidate was submitted a second time by a second recruiter (sometimes even without the candidate’s permission, after having found him/her on a public resume database). However, I would strongly question the competence / professionalism of a company who will hire someone they believe to be an inferior candidate simply to avoid the possibility of an unjust lawsuit which they should eventually win anyway. Seems they would not have a strong company culture with that kind of attitude where the people working at the company was of secondary importance.</p>

<p>Anyway, what is your opinion on this topic? As long as one is honest about contacting many different recruiters, do you still think it is a good idea in spite of this potential problem?</p>

4

<p>As far as “one hour a day”, the reason I say that is because your time is far more productive connecting with recruiters on LinkedIn than it is filling out job applications. There’s ABSOLUTELY value in filling out applications, but once you get good at searching for jobs, you should see all the listings for your area very quickly, and not need to spend more than an hour filling out applications. … The best job engines are Indeed and Careerbuilder, in my opinion. And many Careerbuilder postings are also listed on Indeed. So Indeed is the first one that you should use. </p>

<p>What you really should be doing the majority of your day is talking to people. Talk to as many relevant people as you possible can.</p>

<p>There was a 2-month period earlier this year when I moved to a different location for family reasons, and had to start the job search from scratch after leaving my last positions (basically I’m an IT analyst). Over those two months, I added at least 300 people on LinkedIn in my new area, many of whom were recruiters. Nearly all of them were strangers, but most confirmed my “connection (friend) request”, because I was one more resume to add to their database (for when they are looking for someone to fill an opening that will arise in the future). </p>

<hr>

<p>Random side bar, but the majority of good jobs are in big cities: Chicago, LA, SF, DC, Boston, NYC, Miami, Dallas, Houston. … For instance, in Florida, in terms of “office jobs”, there are the most jobs in Miami/Ft Lauderdale, followed by Tampa, followed by Jacksonville, followed by Orlando. So, if you’re in Orlando, realize that it’d be wise to look for roles in other cities. … I’d imagine that this pattern holds true in other states with multiple decent-sized cities, like Texas or California or Illinois. … Just a reminder that your “location” might be a big reason why you are struggling in the job search. </p>

<p>Also, though this kinda contradicts my first point: North Dakota has a super low unemployment rate. Perhaps look for jobs there. </p>

<hr>

<p>Regarding 2nd question of “multiple recruiters”, you are right that legal complications can arise when multiple recruiters submit you for a role. </p>

<p>However, a recruiter should NEVER submit you to a position without first asking your specific permission, i.e. “Do I have permission to submit for this financial analyst opening at this company?” </p>

<p>However, once you get submitted for that role by one recruiter, you must not allow any other recruiter to submit you for that same role. So, if 2 mins later, another recruiter that you like more calls you and asks if they can submit you to that same position, say, “Sorry, I was already submitted to that role.” … If they ask who did it for you, say “I’d rather not say.” … If they badger you about it, they’re unprofessional, and you should stop working with them. </p>

<p>Recruiters ALWAYS want to know who else you’re work with. Recruiters are using you to get more leads. Don’t give them to them if you don’t want to.</p>

<p>Even within one staffing company, recruiters compete with each other to get the most “placements” of job-seekers. So Recruiter A might not want to share your profile with Recruiter B. In some big cities, these staffing agencies can have 40+ recruiters working out of one office. So try to (discretely) connect with multiple recruiters in one office, and try to connect with the same staffing agency in multiple cities. There was so many times when Recruiter A at a staffing agency said that he had no opportunities for me, then I would discretely call a separate recruiter at the same office, and that recruiter would have something for me. … Especially at a big staffing agency, when an opening comes to a staffing agency, usually only 1-2 recruiters work on that. Recruiter A will probably only know about the jobs that he’s working on, and have no idea about the jobs that his coworkers way across the office are working on. </p>

<hr>

<p>Plain and simple, if you’re job-searching right now, you should be connected to at least 500 people on LinkedIn, the majority of whom should be recruiters and in your area. You should be in touch with these people by phone/email at least 1-2x a month.</p>

5

<p>I just really can’t overstate the importance of the fact that most of the time, the overwhelming majority of recruiters that you interact with will be utterly worthless to you.</p>

<p>A recruiter at one of the big firms might be meeting with 20 people a week like you, yet they only probably only place 0-3 a week of those candidates on jobs. </p>

<p>So it’s quite important that you talk to dozens/hundreds of recruiters. </p>

<p>Non-accounting/programming entry-level college grads with no post-college experience are in excess supply. The odds that any one recruiter gets you onto a job is quite low. But interact with 50+ recruiters, and you have a much better chance. </p>

<p>Be polite to the recruiters, but don’t trust them. </p>

<p>Here’s the sad reality (and it took me several months after graduating college to get a job): if your skills were truly so awesome, you wouldn’t be looking for a job. The odds are stacked against you. The best way to overcome that is by having scores of recruiters and your own personal network trying to get you a job. And to a lesser extent, filling out a ton of applications.</p>

<hr>

<p>There have been so many times when I had a meeting or long phone call with a recruiter, they finish the meeting by saying “Hopefully I can get you a job shortly”, and then 3 months later, they haven’t even gotten me an interview. </p>

<p>But there have also been occasions when I find a recruiter on LinkedIn, email them, and the next day, they get me an interview. </p>

<p>It’s entirely random, and most recruiters will ultimately not even get you interviews, but it’s worth contacting tons of them for the time when they can get you an interview, whether it’s the next day or six months down the line.</p>

6

<p>Never thought about contacting recruiters for jobs. I’ve been submitting my resume through the company’s website or direct email. Though, I’m kinda weary about sending my resume to recruiters or staffing agencies because I’ve heard there are scams out there?</p>

7

<p>@acc … I mean, I suppose a very small sliver of recruiters are scams. But here’s how it works in 99% of the cases …</p>

<p>Company (Best Buy, Chase Bank, Ford, small local company, etc.) sends out a notice to one or multiple staffing agencies saying “We’re looking to hire a XOXOXO”. Usually, this job will not be posted to the general public, only staffing agencies will know that the opening exists. </p>

<p>So, once the staffing agency has the ‘order’, the recruiters look through their database of candidates that they have, and contact people that they know that might be a good fit for the role. These staffing agencies then submit qualified candidates to the company, and if the company likes the resume, they’ll start the interview. The company pays a commission to the staffing agency for finding the winning candidate. </p>

<p>YOU SHOULD NEVER PAY A RECRUITER FOR ANYTHING.</p>

<p>I can’t stress enough the importance of being close to TONS of recruiters. Get on LinkedIn right now, use the search feature to find recruiters in your area that work for staffing agencies, ‘add them’ to your connections, browse through their connections and ‘add’ their connections that can help you, join groups and add members in the group that can help you in the job search. </p>

<p>There’s definitely value in applying for jobs you see posted online and in using your own network. But recruiters full-time jobs is to get job searchers employed. You absolutely should be using them.</p>

8

<p>This is the best advice I have seen on cc… Thanks so much!!! If you ever have any other brainstorms or advice on this topic please share! Anyone else have suggestions to add?</p>

9

<p>Be sure you TELL the recruiter that you want to be notified before they submit your resume anyplace. Also… it isn’t a bad idea to ask to see your reformatted resume if they are going to do anything to it before submitting. I have had recruiters change the wording in ways that really changed the meaning of what I had done (sometimes they make me look better, and sometimes they make me look worse…).</p>

<p>Also, use LinkedIn to link to any older students from your college that are in the workforce (and your classmates) as well. My D1 found her job last spring through a student she knew a year ahead of her who already had a job. The other student got promoted, they needed to fill her old job, and D1 got it. Now D1 is the one in line for promotion this year. :)</p>

<p>I will say, I have gotten interviews via Monster (in fact, I have high hopes about something I just applied for last week). But I have very deep, specialized skills in my field, so I can stand out from the crowd. It is a lot harder for a new graduate to stand out.</p>

10

<p>Completely agree that it’s hard for new grads to stand out. Apart from engineers, accountants, healthcare workers, technology specialists, or teachers, very few people leave college with any relevant skill or experience. </p>

<p>I’m 4.5 years out of college now. It’s interesting to see how my friends careers have developed.</p>

<p>I’ll Share Their Stories (all of them have at least bachelor’s degrees):</p>

<p>One friend got the CPA right out of college, has worked hard at an auditing firm, makes damn good money, though doesn’t find his work too interesting. </p>

<p>One friend is pursuing his dream of being on TV, and does the morning show at a station in a small American city, but makes extremely little money (30k, when most of his friends make $50k+). </p>

<p>A couple friends work as teachers, and really love their lives, especially all the vacation time they have. I get paid to work 260 days a year, and get 10 vacation days. My teacher friends teach 180 days a year, and make slightly less than me while working 80 fewer days. Also, many of them have part-time fun summer jobs (lifeguard, bartender, etc.) that give them extra cash, even though they continue to get paid in the summer. Especially if you’re in a state that pays teachers well, I highly recommend this career path.</p>

<p>One friend just graduated from a 25th-ish law school in the middle of the class, and is making 50k as an Assistant District Attorney in a rural area, and has a lot of law school loans. Hardly a glamorous life.</p>

<p>One friend graduated with a petroleum engineering degree, made $80k to start, and has had a very successful 4-year run.</p>

<p>One friend had a big desire to make good money, so he decided to be a real estate broker (selling small apartment buildings). The first few years, he made very little money at all, but he’s been on fire the last couple years (making close to $90k a year). This is an extremely risky industry though. </p>

<p>Another friend was also very motivated by money, became a medical-products salesman, and is doing quite well. Honestly, he’s definitely a frat-boy ******y type (in a way), but he’s happy with life. (Though lots of people that care about ‘doing something interesting / making the world a better place’ would find his job pretty boring. It’s a super-pushy job).</p>

<p>One friend had a ‘Business’ degree in college, and works a very typical ‘financial analyst’ cubicle job at a mid-level company. Nothing prestigious. Makes mid-40s. </p>

<p>One friend just became a pharmacist. Enjoys her work, and makes $100k. </p>

<p>One friend just became a PA. Same thing, loves her work, makes great money.</p>

<p>Another friend graduated from an average law school. Works as a defense attorney, defending often-sketchy people (wife-beaters, etc.) Definitely not what she wants to be doing. </p>

<p>Another friend just started med school. Within residency, etc., it’ll be 7-9 years before she makes any real money. </p>

<p>One friend graduated in '08 from a rather good undergrad business program, albeit with a marketing degree (marketing pays less on average than finance / accounting). He enjoys helping companies market their product, but he’s too conservative / timid for the industry he’s in. He didn’t ‘sell himself’ well enough over the last 4 years. He now works at a small marketing agency an hour outside of Chicago, makes about $45k. He’s gonna take the GMAT in a month, but he’s never been a good test taker, so, I’m not sure how good of an MBA program he could get into. … It’s also been hard for him to get ‘better jobs’, because the jobs he really wants seem to hire people that originally worked at the ‘elite’ marketing/advertising agencies, not an unknown small marketing firm. If he can get into a great MBA, it’d be a chance for him to ‘restart’, so, we’ll see. </p>

<p>Another friend works for a big insurance company, and handles phone calls to deal with insurance claims. Kinda boring, but each case is unique, so he says he’s always having to use his brains. Makes $50k, works 40 hours a week. Typical office job. </p>

<p>Another friend works as a Foreign Service Officer for the State Department. Just spent 2 years working at an Embassy in South America, looking to do her next role in the Middle East. Passionate about the work. Lower pay, but free housing, so it balances out. You obviously have to be willing to move around the world.</p>

<p>Another friend is pursuing her PhD in Spanish Linguistics at a top public research university, lives okay on the stipend. Definitely hard at first, upon getting the PhD, to get a stable professorship job. You definitely have to be open to accepting positions at less-prestigious unis or community colleges. I took a semester at a community college in 2005, and my Psychology and Spanish professors both had PhDs from Northwestern U.</p>

<p>One of my friends went to #20ish law school, got really good grades, and is working at one of the better firms in Chicago. Probably makes at least $100k. Works long hours, but nothing insane.</p>

<p>One girl has a mediocre sales job, selling office furniture. </p>

<p>A couple friends work as recruiters for staffing agencies. Make between $40-70k, depending on how things are going. </p>

<p>Another friend works as a hotel manager. Bizarre hours (nights / weekends), but happy with his job and the freedom of not being stuck at a desk all day.</p>

<p>One friend graduated from an elite university, worked at one of the top consulting firms for a couple years, and has now founded a software company with a friend. </p>

<p>One friends works as a research scientist for a university (she has a bachelor’s in biology, nothing else). Finds the work interesting, but the pay isn’t amazing ($40s-ish, I’d imagine). </p>

<p>One friend teaches English abroad, in China now. Hooked up with a good firm, lives rather comfortably there on the good salary. But no idea what he’ll do once he returns, could definitely be hard for him to find a job (I know that lots of people struggle with finding good jobs after returning from teaching English abroad). </p>

<p>Several friends (and myself) fall in the “analyst” category of cubicle workers (statistical analyst, actuary, financial analyst, data analyst, IT analyst) make pretty solid money ($50k+), though none of the jobs are particularly exciting.</p>

<p>Couple of my friends work as financial advisers (manage people’s money for retirement). Lots of people try to do this job, and many fail. They’ve both managed to succeed, and are doing pretty well, though they constantly are being pressured by their bosses to bring in more clients / money.</p>

<hr>

<p>There are a few jobs where IQ / SAT scores are extremely important: top investment banking jobs, top law-firm jobs, doctors. … But after that, as long as your reasonably smart, there’s not much correlation between IQ / SAT scores and career success / happiness / income. The ones who are happiest in there careers are the ones who best figured out what would make them happy (type of job / position / salary), and did everything possible to achieve their goals. The ones who are less satisfied with their careers are the ones that have ‘drifted along’ without specific goals, randomly applying for ‘interesting jobs’ here and there, and hoping for the best.</p>

<p>I’ll also say this: working at a ‘prestigious’ company can be phenomenally important. I got my current (good) job at a small firm primarily because my first company post-college was prestigious (Accenture). Have an ‘elite’ name on your resume sticks with you forever, and shows future employers that you were smart/skilled enough to get hired by that ‘elite’ company.</p>