<p>angstridden. I would agree for public schools in elementary and high school education, but not for college. When I look at the opportunities my kid is getting at her private small university, I am amazed. She's not having to fight her way in a 500 kid lecture class - instead she spent over an hour chatting with her psych professor about research and her interests in psych. She is one of 9 students in a Spanish class, and 12 in a Primatology class. She's already involved in a research project. She's out almost every night at plays, lectures, poetry readings, political events, and she's participating in 2 club sports and a musical group. She's in a close-knit residential college system, and has support services (if she needs them) available at every step of the way. I'm sorry, but our large, flag-ship, top 50 public university will not provide that kind of experience.</p>
<p>Currently my daughter attends the honors program at the Univeristy of Maryland. Prior to joining these boards I had no idea that some folks thought that private colleges were better than public. I just dont believe it based on my experiences.</p>
<p>Public and private are very generic terms. Some public schools are as good as they come. Some private schools are really mediocre. I think it is unreasonable to lable a school based on such shallow terms.</p>
<p>There are many myths surrounding private and public schools. Most of them focus on the attention that is given to undergrads. But if one looks closely, schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Notre Dame, Lehigh, Georgetown, Boston College etc... do not offer much more attention that schools like Cal-Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, UNC and Michigan.</p>
<p>Take a school like the University of Michigan. Here are a few measurables:</p>
<p>Annual Budget: $4,000,000,000 (largest university budget in the US)</p>
<p>State Funding: $300,000,000. In other words, only 8% of Michigan's operating budget comes from the state. Michigan is pretty much self-reliant financially speaking.</p>
<p>Research spending: $750,000,000 (#3 nationally)</p>
<p>Research projects availlable to undergraduates: over 1,000</p>
<p>Undergrads involved in research: 35%</p>
<p>Endowment: $3.5 Billion (10th nationally) as of 2003. Current initiative has raised $1.5 Billion since May, 2004 and is expected to raise another $1 Billion by next March. By March of 2005, Michigan's endowment will have hit $6 Billion, making it one of the 5 or 6 wealthiest universities in the nation. </p>
<p>Out-of-state students: 10,000 (35%) undergraduate students and 10,000 (70%) graduate students.</p>
<p>International students: 1,200 (5%) undergrads and 2,000 (14%) grads</p>
<p>Class size: 30% under 15, 20% between 15 and 20, 35% between 21 and 50, 10%between 51 and 100 and 6% over 100.</p>
<p>In my 4 years as an undergraduate student at Michigan, I took 45 classes. Of those, only 6 had more than 100 students and 30 or so had fewer than 30 students. Roughly 10 of my classes had fewer than 10 students. I never failed to register of a class and I never had to wait to speak to a professor. </p>
<p>I can only think of a few, maybe 10 or so, private research universities than can offer what Michigan has to offer. LACs offer a different type of education. More individualized in some ways, but more limited in others.</p>
<p>Obviously, Michigan is an extreme case. But schools like Cal-Berkeley, UCLA, UNC-Chapel Hill, UT-Austin, Wisconsin-Madison, Virginia, Illinois-Urbana Champaign and William and Mary offer similar opportunities. </p>
<p>In short, some state universities offer as much as private universities and some private universities do not offer much at all.</p>
<p>Anxiousmom, My daughter is in a large lecture for one class and then they split off into smaller groups for follow up. So there are about 15 in her group with the Professor that meet every Friday. Similar with other classes. She also has tremendous extracurricular activities opportunities. Naturally her school offers plays, readings, etc etc just like your daughters. And she has joined several of the many clubs that are on campus and there are so many she was able to find ones that exactly met her needs.
So whats so different?
Probably campus size..my Daughter has a hike to classes and she is getting even fitter! We love to walk in this family.</p>
<p>BTW she is a freshman and has gone on several field trips with one of her teachers (some drove in the Profs car). All of the teachers she says have been very easy to chat with and follow up with. And the counseling and advisement department is right there when she needs it as she did this summer when she changed classes based on her AP results.
You are mentioning clubs and activities your daughter is involved in but so is mine. She is taking and doing things she has always wanted to do. Of course a large school has such a HUGE variety and so much going on there is always something to do. So I dont know what you mean when you say a large university cant provide that type of experience.
There are so many majors and opportunities to explore other majors. Our school for example has a working dairy and an equistrian area.
How do you know that your large flag ship University wont or cant provide that type of experience because my daughter is at one and getting it!</p>
<p>Great points Alexandre. I really dont think many private U' s can begin to offer some of the opportunities that many public ones do.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I had no idea that some folks thought that private colleges were better than public<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Lots of people believe that. Part of it is elitism or the belief that if you pay a lot more for something, it MUST be better.</p>
<p>There are a few legitimate reasons why SOME private colleges may be better than SOME public universities. Quite a few public universities are known for huge lecture classes, difficult scheduling (getting the classes needed in the proper sequence when you want them), and indifferent advising. Private colleges almost always have smaller average class sizes, and often offer a bit more personal approach to advising/counseling.</p>
<p>Having said that, major public universities almost always offer a MUCH broader curriculum with far more course choices and often have superior lab and other resources. Athletics programs are often stronger in big publics, too, although not always.</p>
<p>As with most things in the difficult process of choosing a college, it comes down to what fits the student. I've always felt that a confident, self-directed student might fare better at a big public simply because of the resources and options; a student who needs a bit more nurturing will probably do better in a smaller private.</p>
<p>Studies seem to show that lifetime earnings (one crude measure of life success) depend FAR more on the individual student's capabilities than the school attended. Comparisons between elite grads and non-elite grads show little difference in long-term earnings when they are adjusted for the accomplishments of the incoming students.</p>
<p>You can't recreate the intimacy of a musical performance in a small basement club in an arena. Just can't. And vice-versa. While my D may come home raving about "being right on stage" " and " got to say hi " to the performers, yours may come home from the arena thoroughly impressed with the "grand stage", or maybe the "technical wizardry" that only skads of $ can buy. Actually D could and would say both! Why can't we just say that there are reasons for both to exist?</p>
<p>Our last college trip, 3 weeks ago, left D with stark contrasts. The largest school visited was over-powering to her. It had vastly superior resources compared to the smallest school visited. From the nuclear reactor , to the opportunities provided by a $200,000,000 shot in the arm to its honors college, it had everything you could want in the way of a major state flagship research university without the humongous size. D hated it. We also visited a very tiny school not at all on the national screen. We actually saw 4 students (out of six) whose pictures were on the admissions website extolling campus virtues. D felt like she was at her high school. She hated it.</p>
<p>She hated the "huge" campus. She hated the distance between the dorms and the library. She hated the fact that few undergrads lived on campus beyond their freshman year. She hated that the presence of grad students meant the possibility of non-terminal degreed instructors teaching her class or her lab or grading her tests. She hated that she wasn't able to even dream of competing in inter-collegiate athletics. She really hated the "city" traffic through the campus.</p>
<p>She hated the "tiny" campus. She moaned about the inadequate laboratory facilities. She worried about the handful of Chemistry majors per year. She worried that the dearth of available professors in her major would create an extreme negative situation if she found she didn't get along with all of them (I think there were 6 total in Chemistry). She worried that the advisement may not be up to standard since the list of schools that recent grads in her major field attended for grad school was a bit "limited" in her mind. She really hated the hold Greeks appeared to have on the campus.</p>
<p>There were positives aplenty at both institutions , and plenty of other negatives, too. We tend to make this too black and white. D really enjoys the idea of William and Mary, maybe not as much the apparently limited financial aid to out of staters and the Greeks , but the idea that you can have a manageable slice of all of it. Public, reasonable size, walking campus, reasonable facilities, great advising, great research opportunities, excellent national rep, plenty of courses and professors. Some students are looking for a balanced experience . Unfortunately for the tires on my car, my D appears to be one of them. Coming to a college town near you soon , our tour continues.</p>
<p>I think the consensus is, the individual school and the individual fit. There are big and small public schools, and big and small private schools. Highly selective and less selective in both categories. Party-oriented and not in both categories. Big-time athletics or not, etc. etc. etc.</p>
<p>My H and I went to a large public U, my D went to an LAC, my son is at a mid-sized private U. We all got/are getting great eduations; we all had/have wonderful college experiences.</p>
<p>Bigger generalizations seem unhelpful, at best.</p>
<p>I agree different fits for differnt folks! BUT may I say that UMD where my D. goes has so MANY different theaters that you can have any number of experiences depending on which one you go to. So I am not sure what you mean by you cant say hi to the performers??
As far as William and Mary that was my D's 3rd choice school and I thought it was a lovely school but it did not offer anywhere near the facilities that MD offered. When I saw MD I was very impressed with the facilities. So much to do and places to grow where she thought she would outgrow William and Mary quickly.
But as we said different choices for different people . It just irks me when someone thinks because its private its better. I really challenge that assumption.</p>
<p>While the gross budget at UM is indeed $4.0+ billion, nearly half of this is due to the patient care operations of the UM hospitals which are huge. Many schools have made the hospital operations separate operations not included in their budgets and are thus not comparable.</p>
<p>I think it's about where a student feels comfortable enough to take advantage of whatever opportunities are there. A student who feels lost, overwhelmed, friendless, at a large university will not pursue all the academic and social chances it offers. A student at a smaller college who feels out of step with the dominant campus culture, claustrophobic, bored, is not going to enjoy what others experience as nurturing there.</p>
<p>We had one kid at a public, have another at a private. They are such different kids that I can't imagine them swapping schools. If every student were the same, then the generalized argument over public vs private, big vs small, lac vs research university, would make sense. It doesn't.</p>
<p>I think MD appreciates its own size. They have a lot of different programs and activities to help kids meet and greet. From planned floor nights to informal activities to get togethers for those in certain majors or progams like honors for instance. It worked for my D. She disliked her large public HS alot ..but is thriving at the large public U. She just lights up there!
Fortunately she met some folks at orientation and they hit it off. But she has met lots of folks since, joined several clubs and is talking about dong things she never would have considered in HS.
I think we have to agree that different types of schools fit different personalities. BUT as I mentioned I dont know why someone would think their kid is getting a better education and better experiences becase they are at a private school.</p>
<p>That is correct Lovejoy. Of Michigan's $4.1 Billion operating budget, about $1.9 Billion is for the hospital. But even then, Michigan's budget is huge. Here are some of the main university's operating budget (not inlcuding their hospitals)</p>
<h1>1 Harvard: $2.4 Billion</h1>
<h1>2 Stanford: $2.3 Billion</h1>
<h1>3 Michigan: $2.2 Billion</h1>
<h1>4 Columbia: $2.1 Billion</h1>
<h1>5 Chicago: $2.0 Billion</h1>
<h1>6 Wisconsin $1.5 Billion (2001 figure...probably over $2 Billion by now)</h1>
<p>Yale: $1.5 Billion
Princeton $1 Billion
Brown: $550 Million</p>
<p>UW Madison is at $1.9 Billion for 2004. The last couple of budgets were tough. If we had your tuition revenue it would be much closer.</p>
<p>You have to be more self-motivated at public universities. There are so many people there that you can get lost unless you take your education into your own hands, whereas at the Ivy Leagues, you will pretty much be coddled. If you are willing to work at it, you can get a great education. My father, who attended Caltech(undergrad), the Sorbonne, Stanford and Berkeley, found Berkeley the best (for his particular personality and needs). I think crowding has gotten much worse since then, however. I am going to Berkeley, but unfortunately, I am very passive and lazy, so it could go badly for me</p>
<p>Cherokee, not all Ivys coddle you. Penn, Cornell, Harvard and Columbia do not coddle. Like most major research universities, they require students to take initiative.</p>
<p>My friends son is going to a private college where they opened the ceremony by giving each kid an acorn and then saying..by the time you have graduated you will be trees. I thought how cute. But then I thought how primary school.
At UMD you are required to meet with your counselor so many times per semester so you are on the right path. They have folks available to help you with questions.
Just because its large does not mean they dont take care of you. Ok they are not coddling you..but she is past that. She wants to make decisions herself and use the guidance as a resource not as her source.</p>
<p>Angstridden, even private schools do not coddle. It is a missconception. Many schools, in order to attract students and appease parents, say that they are proactive in helping students. But is not the case at schools like Chicago, Northwestern, Stanford, MIT, Columbia, Penn, Cornell, Harvard and Johns Hopkins. Those schools are no different from the Michigans and UVAs of the world. At all those leading research institutions, private or public, the faculty cares primarily about research. Intro classes are huge. The administration is often out of touch with students. Of course, if students take the initiative, they will get what they desire, but those universities do not intend to coddle...they intend to make future leaders out of their young acorns...and that cannot be accomplished by coddling. I never understood the desire students and their parents have for small classes and a spoon feeding academic environment. The real world will not give anybody a second chance, and I would hope a university would be the place to prepare students for the harsh realities of our world.</p>
<p>I dont know if they coddle or not. I guess I got the impression coddling is one of the reasons folks seem to think private schools are better is because they feel their child will get more one on one ie be looked after. I get the impression that many feel the big U's are impersonal.
As I mentioned it was not till I read these boards that I realized folks actually believe a private college is better than public.<br>
Guess I should have realized that after teaching in a private school and having parents think they were getting more than what the child would have gotten in the public system. NOT ..this school was well known but the behind the scenes was pretty bad.</p>