How many privileged asians do you think there are versus underprivileged Asians? Be honest with yourself- the vast majority of asians are considered privileged- there are obvious reasons why Asians are the top earning ethnic group in the USA.
Note how I said ASIAN immigrants- even though there’s no hard statistics about it, just look at any first generation Asian immigrant conclave in areas such as Edison, NJ- does anyone truly believe that most of these educated, working first-get immigrants came through family immigration? Sure, they might bring their families along with them after, but most of these working-age adults got into America FIRST through work visas.
And colleges are not cutting out or ‘nullifying’ affirmation action in favor of ‘privilege scores’- just look at how Yale used these scores last year- their admission office used both in order to “diversify their freshman class”, in the words of their own Dean. The effect? From the class of 2021 to the class of 2022, the Asian portion of Yale’s freshman class dropped significantly from 25.4% to 21.7% which is fairly significant.
@GreenPoison
Agree with you, Asians should go for BS MD path if they are set for medicine.
At top 20 colleges, students with 2-year gap make up 20-25% of the matriculating class. It is 23% at NU as an example.
With this adversity score crap, I expect more Asians will doing 2-year gap just to be competitive if they pursue the traditional route.
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In 2018, as per Dept of State, for India, ~22K received employment based GCs vs ~16K for family preference.
Add the 10+ year backlog in employment based GCs for Indians, the ratio is probably more in favor of employment based immigration.
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Another data point: Google has ~ 30% Asian staff but was pulled over for not having enough minorities. It seems folks conveniently forget that Asians are minorities also.
Just because they work hard, emphasize education and are willing to take risks, things are skewed against them.
No wonder there is a lawsuit against Harvard. It is a matter of time before other universities also get sued.
Lol check Oak Tree Rd, Devon Ave, Jackson Heights, China town in various cities, you will get answer. You are only looking through Asian lens, not America lens. It is true that Asians are top earning ethnic group, but also relatively very small size of America and that certainly boosts the average way up. By that standard Jews can ring the bell too.
Elite schools are not Asian schools nor any other ethnicity. So that kind of fluctuation is expected when you talk about diversity from American point of view. Still that Yale number is very good compare to Asian population size, 5.6%. Remember, Adversity Score is not just for SOM, but going to affect other branches too. SOM is not everything in life
As far as immigration goes, it is obvious that biggest beneficiary countries for work based immigration are India and China. At the same time if you look at lawful legal residents numbers, out of 13M, only 1.2M are from India and China born,<10% (this is not the focus if we want to talk about immigration, it should be entire 13M). Source homeland security site https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/population-estimates/LPR and
link on that https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/lpr_population_estimates_january_2015.pdf, see table 4.
Look at 10 years H1-B trend data, 2007 to 2017 https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2007-2017-trend-tables.pdf
Certainly India has 2/3 applicants and so assume 2/3 approvals too. Since 2004 cap is 65K, before that in late 90s it was used to be 100K+. Family migration is not just parents of immigrated H1-B folks, but also brothers, sisters and potentially groom/bride for kids.
Minority is very deceiving word and folks from India know that very well, can we ask similar minority interpretation here? ofc not, Majority in India wants to be treated like minority here.
For a nation to be strong, it is important that all sectors and walks of life participate.
If you know America Immigration History, it is being build in waves from different parts of world, Eastern Europeans, Japanese, Filipinos and since 1965 Indians and Chinese.
Looks like a student who thrived in adverse circumstances is going to have an edge over who thrived in privileged circumstances.
Argumentative people may say whatever they may, but it is a known fact about the ongoing bias against ORMs. Interesting fact you have against Yale. Another equally significant one that no one raised yet and that percolates down to even BS/BA/MD programs is Brown PLME, even as they have one of the largest such programs with a strength of 60 or so. We don’t know what percentage of that class every year is ORMs but I am comfortable in betting it must be less than Yale’s overall 21% or whatever. Wouldn’t be surprised if it is even half as much, i.e. 6 or 7 in that huge program every year being of Asian descent!
We express our views with facts, irrespective of agreement. Affirmative action and Adversity Factor are 2 separate items and it is easy to blur them. One is race based vs another any race individual that faces adverse conditions and thrive. To suggest Asians doesn’t face adverse conditions is as naive as to suggest America is against Immigration. One with privilege may think it is against them, but as a society that policy makes more sense (this is just not about medical colleges).
If this approach taken by Whites some 40 years back, today’s Asian Dr contribution wouldn’t be even near to the number as we know today. Or more broadly against Asian immigration, most of active folks on this thread probably won’t be in a position to express the opinion, it is easy and convenient to forget the roots.
No one did anyone any favor by allowing well educated doctors from around the world come here and render their expertise and make the healthcare system here one of the best in the world … Such was the shortage and demand for well qualified and highly skilled physicians in this country in the 70s and 80s, that many of the immigrant physicians ended up earning in millions ! (in those days)
Asians being 5.6% of the total population, representing around 20% of the accepted Yale population is a very misleading statistic- especially considering that probably 30-40% of the total applicants applying to Yale are Asian.
Just want to address one last thing, then I’m getting off my soapbox- why do some people think that Asians being overrepresented in medical schools, top income brackets, and top colleges are a bad thing that needs to be fixed?
If they worked harder than other people to get to the top, then why do we need to talk down on their success?
By this same logic, African Americans are overrepresented in professional sports- another very lucrative and desirable career path. Why does no one every complain about this?
This idea about overrepresentation and ‘matching’ a group’s population percentage with their percentage in a particular field is absolutely ridiculous- it’s a double standard that only gets applied to Asians, since Asians are an easy political football for politicians to throwing around when they start talking about ‘equality’.
still underprivileged part of society struggling for very same healthcare benefits.
Argument is not that Asian are over represented, therefore cut them. Rather under represented part of society doesn’t getting the service they deserve, so increase their participation.
How many ORM Dr serves URM community?
Going back 40 years again, White Drs where 80%, now 52%. Can Whites claim they were ORM back then and Asians push them aside? Can Asians claim they were smarter than whites back then? ofc, not. It is just myth.
This whole adversity is not about race diversity, rather anyone who has adverse circumstances (most folks on this thread doesn’t belong to that group), that is likely to help African American and Latinos.
No one is undermining Asian intellect or anyone intellect (it is not patented). Asians are making good money but just like everything in world it is not sustainable as population grows. Anyone who had studied immigration of America, knows that when Western Europeans arrived they were the smartest and richest, over the course of time that has changed. Today, not every Western European origin in America is rich, fast forward that happened with Eastern European, Filipinos and other ethnicity. Currently Asians are in driver seat from that point of view which is eventually going to follow same fate.It is a well known fact that by 3rd generation of immigrant person, it becomes Americanized. Unfortunately African Americans were left behind since slavery days, for plenty of reasons outside of this discussion scope.
As far as pro-sport goes, we are now talking profession, not education, blurring the lines. There is no BS degree in Basketball. Athletics in school is a new thing for most immigrant parents on this thread as we only grew in academia environment where sports considered secondary, it is changing gradually overseas as well as here (kids are main driver for that, not immigrant parents), still it is treated as good for health, but not as a livelihood.
Final point I’m going to make on this topic, since I don’t want to derail the thread.
I’m just gonna say this: I go to my doctor to fix my health, not to see them as an example of a solution to social ills. I could care less about their gender, race, or disability status. In fact, I much rather be operated on by any other type of surgeon than an Asian surgeon, if I knew the Asian surgeon would do a bad job.
In other words, all I care about is results- I want to see the most qualified doctor possible. It’s the same type of situation as when you go to a dentist, you want to see the dentist who can do the most painless and efficient job- not the one who fits your preferences or implicit biases. Thus, I see this whole debate as missing the point- undermining merit standards for certain groups of people hurts all potential patients, since these future doctors were potentially not as qualified as other of their peer applicants.
On the other hand, I agree that privilege exists- as of now, most Asians are much more privileged than most African-Americans and Latinos. Does fixing healthcare access solve this privilege issue? No, it is just a remedial band-aid
that misses the entire issue, which is centered around privilege. Even if you miraculously fix the healthcare access issue by having more URM or former-low socioeconomic status doctors, NOTHING will change in the long run- socioeconomic inequality will still cause a huge success and income gap between the URM’s/low-income populace and ORM’s.
Instead, the fix is to attack the issue at its heart- reducing the privilege divide by investing in low-income area infrastructure and schools.There’s been ample evidence to suggest that if you increase educational funding and opportunities, you greatly increase both the intelligence and latent potential of students. These students, when given the tools to succeed, can definetly seize the opportunity- in other words, the achievement gap between low-income and ORM students gets dramatically narrowed.
So why lower the achievement bar for certain ethnicities and socioeconomic groups, when instead they can be nurtured and encouraged to reach it through their own merit?
big arguments here against traditional path is that ORMs gets rejected despite high stats. Here is a response from a faculty on SDN.
At my DO school, we have rejected 4.0/520+ candidates. Their social skills were pathological. As in, ask them a question and they stare at the floor while answering, if they bother answering.
4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen. This is why medical education, both pre-clinical and in GME, are moving to competency-based requirements. Knowledge is only 1/6 of those domains; the rest are all humanistic. In fact, while master of the former may get you an interview at residency, mastery the latter will get you hired.
soft skills and humanities are must, entitlement won’t get us anywhere…Just interesting statistics someone told me, if you are making 35K a year, you are in top 1% of world earners.
@srk2017
the example you indicated occurs if and when you are called for interview.
Many times, you will NOT be called for interview at all if you are ORM.
Question of soft skills vs hard skills:
Harvard lawsuit has highlighted Asian students getting low scores on soft skills even when no Adcoms had met them.
That is stereotyping.
Plus, while soft skills are very important, what use is of them if you lack hard/technical skills?
I have seen too many sales folks with excellent soft skills but ask them 2 questions in detail and they get derailed. Smooth talkers - or as we call them - “full of gas”.
Question is - would you risk your health to someone with insufficient technical skills?
If this faculty thinks technical skills matter only 1/6th, God help that school.
@PPofEngrDr
Socialism does NOT work otherwise USSR would still exists or Venezuela would not be in such turmoil.
Yes, for disadvantaged population, provide resources so that they can compete at level playing fields.
Structural issues like access to quality high school education must be addressed.
Provide equal access as @GreenPoison is suggesting.
But changing the level playing field by raising the bar for Asians and lowering for other minorities does not solve anything - it perpetuates the existing fault-lines.
@NoviceDad No one is talking socialism. socialism is a place where you ration items those are needed for living, like food, fuel. I think we have here big misunderstanding between Affirmative, Adversity and now Capitalism, Socialism.
Like @srk2017 said, soft skills get you hired, which follows the hard skills required to get an interview. It is like to argue, hard working vs luck. We all know luck follows hard work, not other way around.
Also 78% of med school applicant pool is ORM (correct me if i have my numbers wrong), so if someone is taking your spot because of cut-throat competition, its more likely another ORM.
@NoviceDad - If an ORM is not getting medical school interviews despite having GPA/MCAT means they are lacking some other requirements or essays are bad or picked wrong schools to apply to 99.9% of the time.
@NoviceDad I didn’t elaborate accurately, in medicine world ORM stands for Over Represented in Medicine, not minority. By that standard, it includes Whites as well. Adversity is not going to compromise the standards, which itself mean different to different folks. A student born in adverse conditions shouldn’t be punished simply due to lack of resources at the same time student born privileged shouldn’t be considered entitled. Both students should have equal opportunity to crack that glass ceiling. Ofc, non-standard students will be weed out in that process. This is purely from education point of view, not talking about making a living, distribution of wealth blah blah…
As per AAMC URM stands as https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/urm/ . There is no legal definition for ORM, but based on URM, presumably if one replaces the term underrepresented with over-represented in above link it should make sense.
