Tiger Child's View Paper Tigers What happens to all the Asian-American overachievers

<p>Found the GFG post a bit shocking. I know the intent is not racist, but sad to say, it does read like that to me.</p>

<p>The same charges were leveled against Jews 50 - 75 years ago. College interviews began so Harvard could weed out Jews, pure and simple. If you don’t believe me, search out the New Yorker article about this filled with copious factual corroboration.</p>

<p>I feel uncomfortable with a WASP good old boy network that rewards anything with the right pedigree. Not saying that involves anyone here, but I have certainly seen a lot in country work that way.</p>

<p>It’s hard to build a meritocracy. It’s probably not even what ruling elites want. But I think it comes closer to the democratic ideals of America than a de facto aristocracy.</p>

<p>I do agree that test cramming is not indicative of true merit, but that’s a tough thing to measure. My kids are rather deep, a little dreamy, subtle thinkers. Doesn’t get rewarded as much as we’d all like. Oh well. In a society predicated on the quantifiable I don’t see this changing any time soon.</p>

<p>It’s been a long time (or never?) that we rewarded folks of true depth and integrity in the workplace (or too many other places, either.) That’s just something we have to do for ourselves.</p>

<p>And our hs is a tiger high school with very few Asians in the mix. Long Island is just like that.</p>

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<p>Absolutely. I decided not to comment on this, but some of the attitudes expressed in this thread are unbelievable.</p>

<p>It’s like people don’t even realize that America is a country of immigrants. Its culture is an immigrant culture. America doesn’t even have an official language, for Pete’s sake. (Which is why I fail to see how translating “important government documents” into languages other than English can be seen as a gracious concession.)</p>

<p>The fearful mention of a ‘foreign onslaught’ is especially ironic as the people who are most concerned with this are usually white Americans of European descent. Let us not forget on which side of the one true ‘foreign onslaught’ in American history their ancestors stood.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to start a debate on historical guilt or anything like that, but please keep things in perspective. It’s utterly unreasonable to fear cultural differences when your country was built on them.</p>

<p>Whenever I want a promotion, I tell my manager and HR that they could kill 3 birds with one stone - minority (in the coporate world), woman, and over 50. :slight_smile: It works.</p>

<p>Second Ghostt.</p>

<p>The USA is a melting pot. We all come here for different reasons. It is just that someone came earlier, someone came later. I appreciate and respect the diversity of culture on this piece of land. I am proud of my heritage. It really does not matter where we are originally come from, we are all equal here.</p>

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<p>When “outsiders” play the game according to the rules and frequently “win”, there is always pressure to change the rules.</p>

<p>Offensive? How about this quote from the article wherein asian men are being taught how to act authoritative (page 8): </p>

<p>"Before each student crosses the floor of that bare white cubicle in midtown, Tran asks him a question. “What is good in life?” Tran shouts.</p>

<p>The student then replies, in the loudest, most emphatic voice he can muster: “To crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women—in my bed!”</p>

<p>Great stuff.</p>

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<p>It could be harder than the other way around. TheGFG points out the complexity of the issue, not racist at all. Melting into the society is an immigrant issue, not an Asian issue, though it could be harder for Asians.</p>

<p>Did you all read my post, especially the part about where I state that I voted for the Asian man for BOE? (Personally, I would like our schools be much tougher, but I’m smart enough to realize the BOE has next to no control over curriculum and so I had none of the fears others in my town did.) Secondly, my grandfather, my husband, and my son are all immigrants and only one is of European origin, so I am hardly racist or opposed to immigration.</p>

<p>In my post I am merely explaining the dynamic of the bamboo ceiling as I see it. I’m not sure why it isn’t self-evident that no immigrant group can enter a new country and feel perfectly comfortable right away, nor be completely indistinguishable from everyone else in appearance, mannerisms, values, and thought processes. How would that be possible? And why would the immigrants themselves even want that to be the case, since that would mean a complete suppression of their own culture, which we can assume they value? Isn’t that the essence of the angst the writer is talking about? He wants to be himself, which is neither typical Asian nor typical non-Asian. However, fitting into neither group alienates him. That is the typical experience of children of immigrants to any country, and it doesn’t mean anyone is racist.</p>

<p>There’s simply no way around this transition period, and all imigrant groups have gone through it before they eventually melt into our big pot. Furthermore, you can’t melt and still look exactly as you did prior, so fitting in simply has to mean changing a little. Furthermore, it makes no sense to want to live in a different country from your country of birth or the birth country of your parents, and at the same time want the new country to be just like that native land. That IS essentially what you’d be asking for if you want to feel perfectly comfortable and have no one notice anything about you that signals you’re not native-born or your parents weren’t. All the same, that too will come with time, as in by the third generation or so. That’s because Americans are no more racist than any other people group, and probably much less so. Would you say France is more accommodating to their immigrants than we are, for example?</p>

<p>I agree with Mythmom’s take on GFG’s post, but there is a more important issue. It’s not just about whether foreign customs will take over. That could, in a way, make sense. However, in this case, the foreigners are merely expecting an educational institution admit those who are the most talented at learning. It’s not exactly a radical idea, and in fact, it’s not just Asians that do it that way. Canada and Europe also do it that way. (And you don’t need to have it be based on scores to take the most academically talented.) While it may hurt Asians disproportionately due to cultural values, it also hurts those of other races. There was a white kid whose mother wrote that her kid made the math olympics team (though after the admissions decision; probably made MOSP before that), aced Math55, and won an impressive international competition. He was accepted to MIT, but not Harvard or Princeton. The mom was perplexed but not angry, also a little disappointed because Harvard and Princeton were known for their financial aid. So this wasn’t a Tiger-type helicopter mom.</p>

<p>There is also a separate issue as to whether Asians are subconsciously discriminated against. That is, whether Asians with the same EC’s and profile and personality type would be looked upon less favorably than whites.</p>

<p>However, I will point out, that even when basing admissions decisions on merit, the university racial makeup won’t be all Asian or even as lopsided as Berkeley. Caltech doesn’t have affirmative action, and Asians aren’t in the majority. I believe the OP or in a similar thread they ask what an Asian has to do to make it into Caltech. The answer is the same thing any other kid has to do.</p>

<p>The question of whether or not new immigrants should assimilate is a lot more complicated than you all are portraying it here. When you talk about whether someone should adopt an Alpha male stance, you’re talking about whether people should change customs or behavioral practices in order to succeed in a new environment. When you suggest that people feel threatened by “tiger moms”, arguably, you’re not suggesting that people adopt new CUSTOMS, as much as you’re asking them to change their VALUES – because you believe there’s some set of “American values” that Americans are also supposed to hold and which are in conflict with Chinese values (like prioritizing studying over all other activities.)</p>

<p>That’s actually what the conversation in France (and Holland) is about these days – are there values which new immigrants might hold which are actually antithetical to Dutchness or Frenchness, and that people should be asked to lose if they want to be French. For example, if your country’s or culture’s values dictate that girl children should not receive an education, or leave the house without a male relative chaperoning them, or hold paid employment – then arguably, those values are in direct conflict with democratic values, and you should be asked to leave them at the border when you cross the new country’s threshold.<br>
Ask yourself what the Asian guy running for school board represents that has people so frightened? Are they worried because he wants to run the school a different way, or because his values conflict with yours.</p>

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<p>At the beginning, the author indicates that he does not “feel” particularly Asian; thus, he is surprised to look in the mirror and see that he is.</p>

<p>His experience is that his fellow Americans assume certain things about him because of the way he looks. It is his appearance that makes it difficult for others to accept him as assimilated.</p>

<p>I would challenge you to define “appearance.” I live in an area with a lot of Asians, and I would assert that there are many Asians whom Americans would perceive as being just as American as they are, despite their having the typical skin color, hair color, eye shape, etc. normally associated with their race. So if the author stands out, it’s not due to just his slanted eyes. I think he himself would agree with me, in that he discusses his impassive “reptilian” facial expression, the lower frequency of smiling, and other body language indicators. One’s mouth also looks different based on what one’s first language is, due to varying muscle movements, so that is another subtle clue which could make someone stand out as “not one of us.” The good news (or not) is that these minor things diminish by the third generation and so does any discrimination, because I would contend it’s not race per se that is the cause, but a certain level of different-ness that produces alienation, which in turn can reduce opportunities for management positions and such.</p>

<p>If you have never seen him, look up Henry Cho stand up Korean comedian. I love the one of him going to Korea for the first time with his dad. He speaks with a southern accent.</p>

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<p>Actually, being the “same” as a lot of other applicants could be a negative in front of an admissions committee looking for “diversity” (not just in a racial and ethnic sense).</p>

<p>Ahh I am finally making through the last few pages of this interesting article. Here is what the author says towards the end and to me it is beautiful. But what stands out most for me is that this is speaks to much more than Asian-ness. It speaks to the introvert in me, to the seeker in me, to the woman in me, to the fat girl in me, to the jewess, to all the parts of me that I wanted to blame for the fact that I was not the perfect angel gift to the world that I hoped to be. I think this speaks to every person of color who wonders if it’s color that limits them. I think we all have factors which, in our habits of projection, cause us to clench - to hold back - to be reserved - to be self doubting - and which then become self actuated limiting factors. Human condition.</p>

<p>"I finished school alienated both from Asian culture (which, in my hometown, was barely visible) and the manners and mores of my white peers. But like Mao, I wanted to be an individual. I had refused both cultures as an act of self-*assertion. An education spent dutifully acquiring credentials through relentless drilling seemed to me an obscenity. So did adopting the manipulative cheeriness that seemed to secure the popularity of white Americans. </p>

<p>Instead, I set about contriving to live beyond both poles. I wanted what James Baldwin sought as a *writer—“a power which outlasts kingdoms.” Anything short of that seemed a humiliating compromise. I would become an aristocrat of the spirit, who prides himself on his incompetence in the middling tasks that are the world’s business. Who does not seek after material gain. Who is his own law.</p>

<p>This, of course, was madness. A child of Asian immigrants born into the suburbs of New Jersey and educated at Rutgers cannot be a law unto himself. The only way to approximate this is to refuse employment, because you will not be bossed around by people beneath you, and shave your expenses to the bone, because you cannot afford more, and move into a decaying Victorian mansion in Jersey City, so that your sense of eccentric distinction can be preserved in the midst of poverty, and cut yourself free of every form of bourgeois discipline, because these are precisely the habits that will keep you chained to the mediocre fate you consider worse than death.</p>

<p>Throughout my twenties, I proudly turned away from one institution of American life after another (for instance, a steady job), though they had already long since turned away from me. Academe seemed another kind of death—but then again, I had a transcript marred by as many F’s as A’s. I had come from a culture that was the middle path incarnate. And yet for some people, there can be no middle path, only transcendence or descent into the abyss.</p>

<p>I was descending into the abyss.</p>

<p>All this was well deserved. No one had any reason to think I was anything or anyone. And yet I felt entitled to demand this recognition. I knew this was wrong and impermissible; therefore I had to double down on it. The world brings low such people. It brought me low. I haven’t had health insurance in ten years. I didn’t earn more than $12,000 for eight consecutive years. I went three years in the prime of my adulthood without touching a woman. I did not produce a masterpiece."</p>

<p>Ahh youth!</p>

<p>This remind me of the movie “Adam”. I bet a very small proportion of Asian males are like that, so are other groups of people, though smaller.</p>

<p>Have any of you every lived in a foreign country? I have. What I learned is that people don’t expect foreigners living in their country to be exactly like they are. In fact, for most people it’s fun and interesting to meet people who are of a different nationalilty and culture. However, if as a foreigner/or foreign-born citizen you want to truly fit in with the people in your new home, and enter their social circles, you need to convey a respect for them and for the most valued elements of their culture.</p>

<p>What does that entail? First, it entails a good faith effort to learn their language (and no one expects perfection). Secondly, it entails learning what the important social mores are and not violating them. Apparently, I managed to do both of these things, because my friends abroad would say “You’re not like the other Americans. You did X, you understand Y, you don’t act like Z, etc.” I did learn the language very well, which helped, but my friends had no problem with the few Americans who didn’t speak as well as I, but who were making an effort. One of the other important aspects of fitting in was understanding what actions convey cordiality and friendliness in that culture. For example, I was not raised in a particularly effusive culture. Back home, I would walk into a room full of people and yell a hello and wave, and that was perfectly fine. There, I needed to approach each individual at a gathering and greet him or her separately in a prescribed manner. I wasn’t completely comfortable at first, but I did it and grew to appreciate how wonderful that custom is. </p>

<p>The author of the article has figured out that he and his fellow Asians probably aren’t smiling enough, nor showing enough facial expression, nor being talkative enough in certain settings, and that this is being misinterpreted by others. In other words, they had failed to adopt the actions which constitutes amiability here in this country. If people therefore don’t feel comfortable around them or are suspicious of them, is it racism?</p>

<p>PS. I should add that there are elements of this processs of arriving at “belonging” for the foreigner or at a state of “accepting” for the native, that go on below the surface. I don’t think people always realize what exactly it is about you that makes them like and accept you as a foreigner or not. For example, here in my own country, I’ve had two Indian women tell me that they trust me, but that I’m the only American woman they trust. When I asked the one friend why, she admitted she couldn’t give me a good reason, but said “I like that your house doesn’t smell like meat, like other American houses.” I was glad to hear that, but a bit confused since we eat meat probably 6 out of the 7 dinners a week. So what was going on? There was something familiar enough about me (that she incorrectly attributed to vegetarianism) such that she could overlook I wasn’t Indian and trust me.</p>

<p>Wesley Yang won’t understand American culture until he stops referring to “people beneath you,” as in being “bossed around by people beneath you.” There is a very strong egalitarian strain in American culture. To the extent that it’s being eroded, I think that is really regrettable. Everyone is my equal.</p>

<p>Smart people with great test scores in college and high school often fail at ‘real world’ job and day to day challeneges it brings. Especially when part of your ‘grade’ is not always based on how well you test or how smart you are. My company is in the mist of year end promotions and so many times I hear during promotion time …‘he/she volunteeers in the community, great team player, plans/attends social outings, shares knowledge, manages others’ etc, etc</p>

<p>I’ve witnessed many hit this glass/bamboo/whatever ceiling, etc… regardless of race, religion, sex, etc because of the variables above, when all else is equal for promotion.</p>