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<p>Why is that “chilling” mom? UM is just following the rules promulgated by the current federal administration. (As as implied by a previous poster above, it don’t count.):</p>
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<p>I really agree with this Time add-on article and the analogy of the 1980s daycare panic.
<a href=“Christina Hoff Sommers: Rape Culture is a "Panic" Like 1980s Daycare | Time”>http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/</a>
I remember then as a young woman contemplating motherhood that the numbers could not possibly be true, that the “widespread” abuse could not possibly be true…and it wasn’t. Again we cannot diminish assaults and rape, but we also cannot railroad women into reporting things that are not entirely accurate representations months later and we cannot damage young men’s reputations for life without due process.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, actually if the lawyer for the complainant wins, the university did not even follow their own processes to the letter of their own written policies and denied the young man an appeal, let alone existing legal rights and that is what is chilling. Of course the outcome won’t be known for months and months and theoretically the truth will review itself during the legal process, but the young man will carry this stigma for years to come as he tries to complete his college degree and get on with life. </p>
<p>'U-M officials “acknowledged that the sexual misconduct finding would remain permanently on Plaintiff’s educational record and would likely limit his educational, employment and career opportunities,” the suit said. And that sounds surprisingly like due process run amuck since the young women did not call the police, did not press charges of sexual assault and did nothing for 5 months. Chilling indeed. </p>
<p>blue bayou, when I said “You produce one example of an unjustly expelled student,” I meant, you have produced one example, only one, and from that one example you expect me to believe that unfounded rape accusations are the norm and true rapes are rare. The one example does not convince me. A second example still does not convince me. I already believed that there were some examples of unjustly accused and unjustly punished students. Giving a couple of examples does nothing to elucidate the ratio of unfounded rape accusations compared to the number of campus rapes.</p>
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<p>I expect no such thing. </p>
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<p>Never said it did.</p>
<p>It took awhile for the data miners to dig into the unbelievably high number of “reported” child molesters also. Credible sources are already questioning the techniques and validity of the wording for the questions that were used to come up with the not credible numbers of sex abuse cases on campuses. As pointed out by many posters, myself included, this does not excuse the severity of rape or sexual abuse. Rape and sexual abuse require the utmost attention of our police, our legal system, our society. </p>
<p>Drunk regret sex charges judged and punished by untrained administrators does nothing but undermine the credibility of women, mocks our decades of work to make rape and sexual abuse something women should not be ashamed of and put men in the position of having to sue their way to due process. We do not have a “rape culture” as the media has stated with frenzy requiring governmental intervention We have a problem with a very small percentage of repeat rapists and sexual aggressors. As the 8 or 9 currently "known’ and recently publicly reported cases wend their way through the legal system I hope some change will occur to the knee jerk reactions of the colleges and universities. No due process, no attorney, no way. In the Michigan case the uni admitted they didn’t even talk to the young man face to face. Unfortunately I personally think most of these universities will settle out of court to avoid the very situations they created.</p>
<p>@Much2learn ““A lot of woman” may not be responsible, and they may be “slutty and loose” and they may be drunk. None of those are good things. However, none of those things confers to a man the right to have sex with her without obtaining legal consent”</p>
<p>Well, here’s the thing you need to understand since you seem like you grew up in the suburbs and don’t understand criminals. . “However, none of those things confers to a man the right to have sex with her without obtaining legal consent” - Yea, we all know that, but the guys doing it >>>>Do not care<<<<. You’re acting like everybody abides by the same moral code. There are people out there who just do not give a damn about your wellbeing period. So with this knowledge of knowing that their are people out there who don’t give a damn about your well being, you then have to adjust YOUR behavior accordingly, instead of telling the men who do the rape to adjust theirs. Their behavior is a Constant, its not gonna change. However, your behavior is a Variable, you are the ONLY person with control in this situation in that you know their are people out there who don’t care for you so you have to create a plan of awareness to prevent yourself from crossing paths with these types of people, and adjust your behavior accordingly. You’re looking at this from the wrong angle.</p>
<p>Now that a lot of arguments and opinions have been said, this article by a noted Stanford scholar should make more sense to many. I have not seen the campus rape issue so well-summarized anywhere else.</p>
<p><a href=“http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2014/05/13/kangaroo-courts-on-campus-n1837005/page/full”>http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2014/05/13/kangaroo-courts-on-campus-n1837005/page/full</a></p>
<p>Here is a small takeaway from the article that goes straight to heart of the matter:</p>
<p>"There seem to be a dangerously large number of people who think that the law exists to give them whatever they want – even when that means denying other people the same rights that they claim for themselves.</p>
<p>Nowhere is this self-centered attitude more common than on college campuses. And nowhere are such attitudes more encouraged than by the Obama administration’s Justice Department, which is threatening colleges that don’t handle rape issues the politically correct way – that is, by presuming the accused to be guilty and not letting Constitutional safeguards get in the way."</p>
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<p>To be fair to all the suburbs and country club people, like myself, it should be noted this has nothing to do with where one lives or money. </p>
<p>This is the mindset instilled by modern feminism. It started out with the right intentions, but went into overkill by telling women they should be able to do certain things without consequences. You will find the exact same thinking in the middle of West Side New York, Hollywood and the richest sections of Seattle etc.</p>
<p>More understanding that empowerment is not all about one’s actions, but really about getting / gaining general respect would go a long way. There is no empowerment achieved if there is little respect for what you are doing. And, most likely, empowerment, in general, is reduced especially if people do not trust what you are doing. </p>
<p>The situation on campus today is suffering from both these issues: the respect for females is going down, not up and when they raise the rape issue there is little trust in how they go about trying to get justice. No empowerment can be gained out of these conditions; in fact, I really do think it is a net loss. </p>
<p>Yes I do see it all as a net loss. Interestingly media coverage of male lawsuits have been focused on improprieties of the universities and not the accusers, but the day could conceivably come when the accusers are sued for slander or defamation of character which brings everything full circle back to the point where the women should have just called the police in the first place to get a legal document going. Now the tables are turned and the accuser is now the accused and the incident is public record anyway. All because the accuser either didn’t want to involve the police or thought for some reason the university would “protect” in some way. The irony is inescapable and sad to think about. </p>
<p>An article in Washington Post on this issue just yesterday:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-college-become-the-victims-of-progressivism/2014/06/06/e90e73b4-eb50-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-college-become-the-victims-of-progressivism/2014/06/06/e90e73b4-eb50-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html</a></p>
<p>A very relevant takeaway from the article:</p>
<p>“Then add the doctrine that the consent of a female who has been drinking might not protect a male from being found guilty of rape. Then comes costly litigation against institutions that have denied due process to males they accuse of what society considers serious felonies.”</p>
<p>@ druce1992
The failure in you logic is the irrational assumption that by saying to males that they do not have the right to sex without legal consent, I am in some way suggesting that the behavior of females is not of concern. </p>
<p>That is not true. It is obvious that by educating young ladies to avoid risky behaviors, we can reduce these incidents, and we should certainly do that.</p>
<p>However, there are a lot of people who point to this case or that case and extrapolate that, by extension, there is no problem with the behavior of certain young men. That is not the case. We need to educate young men as well. </p>
<p>Futhermore, it is frustrating to hear people argue that once both parties are drinking, there is no such thing as too drunk to legally consent, that ladies need to be responsible for their actions,
but that drunk boys can’t discern legal capacity and therefore can’t be accountable for their actions. So only girls are responsible, not boys? </p>
<p>I keep posting about the boys side because no one is arguing that there should be better education for young ladies. </p>
<p>There are however people arguing that campus rape is not a real problem, and that if it does happen the guy was probably too drunk to know he was breaking the law, so everyone should forget about it, and that the women involved was just a loose drunken slut anyway, so who cares? She put herself in that situation, so she needs be responsible for the consequences</p>
<p>Don’t take what I am saying to imply that I think all of these ladies are innocent vestal virgins. I am not naive. However, it is amazing to me that many of the same people pointing out the shortcomings of the ladies, go on to argue that the behavior of the young men is not a real problem. Clearly, those were all great guys at Yale chanting, “No means yes, and yes means anal” last year.</p>
<p>Obviously, this issue should be addressed from all sides, but some of the parents of the young men seem to be in denial that there could be any problem with how guys are behaving. That is absurd.</p>
<p>From my perspective it appears both women and men are behaving poorly. I cannot condome anyone males or females drinking themselves so silly they lose control. But does one deserve protectionism and the other not in our universities or do we use the criminal justice system and legal system to do what it is intended to do. </p>
<p>@Much2learn “The failure in you logic is the irrational assumption that by saying to males that they do not have the right to sex without legal consent, I am in some way suggesting that the behavior of females is not of concern.”</p>
<p>I honestly dont know what you were trying to say there, I wasn’t getting what you were trying to say.</p>
<p>“We need to educate young men as well. Futhermore, it is frustrating to hear people argue that once both parties are drinking, there is no such thing as too drunk to legally consent, that ladies need to be responsible for their actions, but that drunk boys can’t discern legal capacity and therefore can’t be accountable for their actions. So only girls are responsible, not boys?”</p>
<p>I dont think you properly understood my last response. So let me make it clear. Im not giving the guys a “freepass” No where in my statement did i insinuate that. I specifically and clearly stated that there are people who just do not value your well being. Period. Thus, you must adjust your behavior accordingly when around those kinds of people. This is simply how criminals are. You don’t need to “educate” nobody. Its common sense not to rape a woman and commit a crime. The people who do commit rape is because they do not care because they have an evil nature. Thats it. Period.</p>
<p>Would you walk to the grocery market with your door unlocked in my neighborhood in gang infested South Central LA? No because you know there are people who will steal. So you have to adjust YOUR behavior accordingly and lock your doors and hide your stuff. This is Common SENSE 101.</p>
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<p>With all due respect, there is no poster on this thread that has said/inferred or “extrapolated” any such thing.</p>
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<p>No one on this thread has written that either.</p>
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<p>Clearly I raised three boys, two of them thankfully have completed college, and the third is at one of the universities being investigated, but in my mind NO ONE gets a free pass. Not all women are truthful. Not all males are truthful. Women don’t get a free pass in the stupidity department and neither do males. These days, and as a woman thankfully, sexual overtures can happen from both males and females and if parents of girls don’t understand this generational difference, they need to become aware. The comment about denial can also cut both ways. </p>
<p>I dislike when the term “rape culture” is applied to universities, since colleges are not the only or primary forces that shape our culture. Not that blaming is productive, but if it’s be done, then there is plenty of blame to go around. Surely some could be attributed to the influence of Hollywood and popular music, some to a politically correct society that shirks individual responsibility, some to permissive parenting, some to the individual young people for stupid and criminal choices, and some to society in general for tolerating promiscuity, underage drinking, and excessive alcohol and drug use. But to say that the campus rapes, assaults and drunken sex are happening because of some action or inaction on the part of the university is simply inaccurate. And even after the rape/assault/drunken sex has occurred, do we really want an educational institution which is unequipped for the task to ruin someone’s life over an accusation that hasn’t yet been proven or can’t ever be proven?</p>
<p>This problem does not start when the teenagers reach college. It’s already happening way too much in high school. My D told me that every Monday morning at the lockers she’d witness a new variation of the same drama playing out–a drama in which some girl or other would be crying over what she suspected had happened to her on Saturday night at a party while she was passed out or too wasted to be aware, or over certain cell phone pictures of her in an embarrassing or shameful condition that were sent around to everyone on some kid’s contact list. So when these kids go off to college and continue with the same behavior, it’s the college’s fault?</p>
<p>Secondly, is it fair to blame a university for a crime or drunken sex that occurs off campus, or in another state, merely because the individuals involved attend the same school? In the current Stanford case, the assault occurred over winter break in Alaska, not CA, and yet activists are screaming about the school’s rape culture. What about the rape culture of the students’ home town? I am not saying there may not be a problem with the process at the school, but Stanford should not be held responsible for the fact that an assault occurred. The term “campus rape culture” suggests that the campus environment promotes rape. </p>
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<p>So, every Monday morning, a girl was afraid that she had been raped while unconscious, or raped while too drunk to consent, or put in a “shameful” (probably naked?) condition while she was unconscious and then photographed. Every weekend this was happening! Sounds like a lot of raping going on. And I’m guessing the rapists were not being brought to justice.</p>
<p>Some high school parties are, by all accounts, drunken orgies in which lots of intoxicated kids hook up with each other. Whether it is rape or not, I certainly don’t know. The problem is the girls in question didn’t know either, given they were too intoxicated or under the influence of drugs to remember much. That is why they worry about what may have happened. In one case, police were brought in because the photo sent around was of the girl nude. She had removed her own clothes because she was overheated due to ecstasy use, on top of the alcohol.</p>
<p>@Much2learn wrote:</p>
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<li>To accurate to every poster on this thread, no has ever argued the above. </li>
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<p>What has been argued and questioned is the lack of due process given the accused does not pass the smell test of the most fundamental right afforded our system, which is presumed innocence until proven guilty.</p>
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<li>I am betting a lot of people get crossed-eyed a bit here because most believe that females should be responsible for their actions. Just as the males should be responsible for their actions.</li>
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<p>Additionally, many have also reached the conclusion that if both parties are acting irresponsibly, then it is unfair for only one party to get punished because of actions resulting from said MUTUAL irresponsibility.</p>
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<li>You have also implied or stated in several places that a drunk female (not a passed out one) can legally give consent, and a male can never be deemed too drunk to understand what the female meant.<br></li>
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<p>This also does not pass the smell test for many because adults know that both reverse cases are simultaneously possible: female is too drunk to legally give clear consent, and the male is too drunk to understand what the female is saying. Confusion is abound on both sides.</p>
<p>First, I start with adults who have been there, i.e., in such a situation. There must be more than a few adult females and males who quietly acknowledge there was a point in their drunked-ness where they had no clue what they were doing. I would go as far as to say these two groups are probably a silent majority.</p>
<p>Second, instinctively I think many get this uneasy feeling because they know local laws run counter to this drunk female can give legal consent concept and the drunk male must always understand the female concept.</p>
<p>If drunk driving laws are used as a benchmark, then it believed that with an alcohol level of .08 a person is too impaired to make proper left and right turns and other decisions to drive safely. Yet, it is now to be believed that a higher alcohol level of, say, 2.0 or higher is just fine to make the more complicated decisions of discerning signals of consent or even understanding what another person is saying. </p>
<p>Communication is actually much more difficult when drunk than the static act of driving simply because words and physical actions require interpretation and driving has more to do with basic muscle memory and experience. It is amazing how many drunk people can drive home, but cannot tell you one person they talked to throughout an entire evening.</p>
<p>Therefore, if it is accepted that basic left and right turns cannot be made safely with a .08 alcohol level, how are we to accept with even higher alcohol levels that full-on rational conversation followed by rational understanding is being accomplished? I am going to safely assume very few are buying into these contradictory conclusions about alcohol levels.</p>
<p>It is really common sense conclusions, such as these, that have people giving pause and rethinking how to approach this campus drunk sex issue.</p>