time mag article "Sexual Assault Crisis on American campuses"

Parents Forum
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<p>The question is, what would you have the legal system do? Yes, there are some cases (ie, Steubenville) where law enforcement may actually be looking away in the face of pretty compelling evidence, but date and acquaintance rape are generally pretty hard to prove. The court can’t just start throwing men in jail because women are statistically likely to be telling the truth when they claim to have been raped. </p>

<p>Colleges can do a little better, in that it is fair to make it easier to throw someone out of college than to put him in jail. But there still needs to be some kind of process that involves more than just accepting accusations at face value. </p>

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<p>Sorry for the double post, but here’s a timely article by Emily Bazelon, whose conclusion seems totally reasonable to me: <a href=“Stanford sexual-assault case: Did the university do enough to punish a student it found responsible for sexual misconduct?”>http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/06/stanford_sexual_assault_case_did_the_university_do_enough_to_punish_a_student.2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>If the legal system reviews and believes its processes and laws are reaching proper verdicts, the answer may be to not do anything different.</p>

<p>And having the universities do it is too suspect because clearly they are subject to groupthink and political pressure. They have proved they cannot be trusted to be fair.</p>

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<p>Excellent article aprentice. Thanks for posting. </p>

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<p>@apprenticeprof - Thanks for the article. I do not see, however, how this helps. </p>

<p>The author outlines the problem herself, “It still won’t be easy for a university to run a quasi-judicial process that is fair to everyone involved—and that also gives students who feel they’ve been victimized emotional support.”</p>

<p>Here is the larger philosophical problem - rape is a serious felony and should not be judged by non-judicial people using a quasi-judicial system. It is a bit scary that people think this is OK: quasi-legal approaches to serious legal cases.</p>

<p>It does beg the question though, “If the civil courts are already set up for rape cases, what is the point of this extra-legal creation of a quasi-legal system?” </p>

<p>Well, one thing for sure, lawyers will make tons of money fighting to overturn quasi-legal decisions in the real courts, as is already happening.</p>

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<p>For someone asking for sex, only a clear “yes” from a sober person with ability to consent means “yes”. All other answers, non-answers, or situations mean “no”.</p>

<p>However, someone asked for sex is best advised to clearly say “no” if not wanting to have sex.</p>

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<p>It’s strange that schools suspend students they determine have raped other students, instead of expelling them. If a student has been determined to be a rapist, why would the school want anything more to do with them?</p>

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<p>@‌ awcntdb “If there are not enough guilty court verdicts to your liking, then the logical follow-up questions are, “Are there facts in these cases you know that no one else does? And more specifically, is there evidence in the ‘not guilty’ cases, which you know that the prosecutors and juries reaching these decisions do not know?””</p>

<p>Your word choices continue to imply that there are virtually no convictions because, in reality, there was no rape. In your mind, virtually all of these situations are really mutually consented to and the female regrets it later, or the charges were just made up by the accuser entirely. Therefore justice is being done in your mind. These are not really rapes at all, just “drunk sex”. That is why there are no convictions, just as it should be. </p>

<p>Consider that in an age where our two main political parties do not agree on anything, neither party argues that campus rape this is not a real problem. They may disagree on the magnitude of the problem, or the best approach to fixing it, but no one is still questioning whether a large number of legitimate rapes are occurring on college campuses or that little or no justice is being meted out. You are one of the last individuals sticking with that position. </p>

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<p>No one can have sex with a person unless that person consents. They don’t have to say No. No is the default.</p>

<p>However, someone asked for sex is best advised to clearly say “no” if not wanting to have sex, as ucbalumnus says-- so that rapists don’t have an excuse to rape them. </p>

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<p>The university is not convicting anyone of a crime. The university can and should judge which students to throw out. Students who have raped people, using the preponderance of evidence standard, should be given the heave-ho.</p>

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<p>We agree there. Schools are not convicting anyone of a crime. That is why this is entire system will blow up on itself because the accuser and the school are acting as if the accused is guilty and convicted of a crime. Schools and accusers are not immune to charges of libel and slander, and this is what they are setting themselves up for. Actually, libel is part of several court cases now.</p>

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<p>I have nothing made up in my mind, and I am making no judgement as to what happened between the people, as I was not there.</p>

<p>My post simply ponders why prosecutors and juries seem to be unable to convict or choose not to convict at the rate you would seem to like.</p>

<p>Could the answer be as simple as the evidence is not there, and the determination of rape cannot be made with the certainty that you believe it exists? </p>

<p>That is a fair question given that prosecutors and juries have much more detail than anyone on the outside speculating. And with all that exhausting detail, they still fail in your eyes. It is not like they are not trying to convict. There are reasons why juries are not convicting at the rate you would like, and the reasons lie somewhere in the fact they know a whole lot more than you and me, as to what really happened.</p>

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<p>@awcntdb‌
Essentially you are saying that since there are almost no convictions in campus rape cases, you are not convinced that any legitimate rapes are actually occurring. All of these women are hysterical, and may be making it up.</p>

<p>Amazing. I don’t know what to say.</p>

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<p>No, that is not what awcntb is saying. S/he is saying that, just like with any other crime, the jury has to convict on the basis of evidence. If there isn’t evidence, then the jury cannot convict regardless of whether they believe a rape really happened or not. It can be a tough crime to prove, but less tough if women go immediately to the authorities and submit themselves to the necessary forensic tests. Instead, they often wait for a few weeks, at which point it unfortunately becomes more of a she said, he said situation. And why do women wait? Some are filled with fear and emotional distress. Others may wait because even in their own minds, the situation was muddied by alcohol and drug use.</p>

<p>Consider the Stanford case. Francis told her version of the story, and we have no reason to doubt it, especially since the male seems to have no defense. However, maybe he’s just young and scared and has no legal advice or activist groups to guide him. Even from the story given by Francis herself, can’t you see how there may room for some doubt? On New Year’s Eve, he meets his high school and early college sweetheart–someone he dated for a long time, someone with whom he had an intimate relationship and for whom he may still have strong feelings. She is very glad to see him, greets him enthusiastically, and asks to come home with him. When she arrives to his house, she takes off her clothes and climbs into bed. Isn’t there a possibility for some confusion there?</p>

<p>Furthermore, can we all at least agree young women should not get drunk, go home with men, undress, and climb into their beds? Can we agree that had she gone home instead, or gone to a female friend’s house instead, this would likely not have happened? Saying that certain actions were unwise is not the same as saying she “asked” to be raped. But when we don’t ever declare women’s actions to be unwise and possibly, just possibly contributory, we give girls the false idea that they can, and should be able to, do whatever they want with complete safety and impunity.</p>

<p>Lastly, it would have been helpful to know if the Juneau police have actual evidence in their possession. If they do, then this should be far simpler, right?</p>

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<p>Much2learn,</p>

<p>I share your inability to know what to say in this thread. There are pages of various forms of rape denial, dismissals of rape culture, etc. For the most part, I’ve stopped reading, but when I see it come back to the top of discussions, I keep thinking of the military examples. There are systems that support rapists and there are supporters of systems that support rapists.</p>

<p><a href=“Sexual assault in the United States military - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>“There is an ongoing problem with sexual assault in the U.S. military which has received extensive media coverage in the past several years. A 2012 Pentagon survey found that approximately 26,000 men and women were sexually assaulted. Of those, only 3,374 cases were reported. In 2013, a new pentagon study found that 5,061 troops reported cases of assault. Many people are optimistic that this 50% increase in reports is indicative of victims “growing more comfortable in the system.” Of these reported, however, only 484 cases went to trial, and only 376 resulted in convictions.[1] Ninety percent of the assault victims were eventually involuntarily discharged.[2] Another investigation found that only one in five females and one in 15 males in the United States Air Force would report having been sexually assaulted by service members.”</p>

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<p>I should have added it was equally unwise for him to take a drunk girl to his house. If he was not also drunk, he should have driven her home and that would have been the end of the story. It’s possible he would have done exactly that had there not been the divorce situation going on. She says she was looking for comfort because of that, so may have pleaded to go home with him instead. He should have refused.</p>

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<p>So sorry, I decided I didn’t really want to post after all, lol. There’s no way to delete a comment? Ugh. I appreciate the intellectual nature of this discussion so far. Lots of fascinating and thoughtful commentary on both sides. </p>

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<p>For mamalion and others that are confused by the issues: Sexual assault, rape and criminal sexual behavior are well defined by jurisdiction. Colleges and Universities should always counsel individuals who report incidents that appear to coincide with criminal law to ALSO call the police. And most of us would say if a woman suspects she has been the victim of criminal behavior to call the police. The only known way to get criminal sexual behavior tried in the court system and perpetrators jailed is to utilize the legal system. Criminal courts take the position in our country of innocent until proven guilty. Those accusers/victims may also avail themselves of the procedural regulations of the colleges. The events - both through the police and through the college can happen simultaneously.</p>

<p>What colleges and universities are being forced by the governmen ist to define how to deal with not only students who are unwilling to call the police but also students who feel that they have been violated in some way that may or may not be criminal, but violate their interpretation of student behavior codes. These are the challenging and trying cases. Many colleges and universities do not yet have clearly spelled out procedures for handling these kinds of allegations and outcomes appear to be all over the place, sometimes in favor of the accuser, sometimes not and with varying degrees of severity. For the most part they are operating from a perceived safe position of assuming guilty until proven innocent. It is important to understand the distinction, because the depth and breath of the mandate to colleges is very, very broad and can cover all kinds of behavior, including behavior that may not be considered criminal in that college’s jurisdiction. Also important is that a college investigation can continue on, even of the accuser decides to recant or refuses to sign the complaint. There are two court cases now regarding this, where the college punished the accused even though the accuser recanted, or ultimately refused to sign the complaint. This is serious stuff and we need to teach our young people to take all of this very seriously, if you are going to accuse or if you are accused. It is also important to understand that on many, many campuses the people charged with investigating and prosecuting these decisions are not professionals in these fields and their training could be minimal.</p>

<p>The outcome of this confusion on the parts of universities as to what they are being mandated to do by the government and how to go about this in a fair and equitable manner is difficult. Unfortunately when universities either fail to follow their existing procedures or fail to deliver a decision that either side can emotionally accept, lawsuits happen and both the victims and the accused have the court system to review and rehash the actions of the colleges and universities. This drags on for months on end, sometimes until the kids are out of college and worse yet, often the names of both the victims and the accused become public impacting both their lives, even though the original charges and proceedings were kept confidential. </p>

<p>It is good to discuss these things, but it is also good not to try and simplify the discussion. I think this is important on college campuses also - not to try and distill it down to poster language. It is also, in my opinion, critically important to understand the distinctions in what is considered criminal sexual behavior and what is considered a violation a particular college’s code of conduct because they are not mirrored and it is critically important for colleges and universities to have well defined criteria about what types of behavior are in violation of their codes and Title IX. It must be precise and understandable. The law suits will continue to help define and shape this fortunately.</p>

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<p>@Much2learn‌ wrote:</p>

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<p>Please, do not take my statements to extremes I never said. I never said ANY. </p>

<p>What I am asking is why the level of disparity of what is stated to exist, as compared to after full investigations, courts are not willing to convict? Are the courts using different definitions, different standards? Are these females calling something rape that does not meet accepted legal definitions? Does the evidence not exist? These are legitimate questions.</p>

<p>You are making a reduction, i.e., starting with a conclusion, then working backwards, and rejecting anything that does not support your beginning conclusion. That is fine if you want to do that.</p>

<p>However, what if someone knew nothing of the situation and decided to study if such a problem exists at the level that is oft claimed, the person simply could not find the concrete data to reach the same conclusion. That data just does not exist. The one article I posted partly broke that down. </p>

<p>Why does this data not exist is a legitimate question to ask because to get people on board a cause, there is a definite point where stated positions and claims need to meet concrete data or else people start to wonder what is up. Just saying it, does not make it so; everyone knows that.</p>

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<p>It will be interesting to see how the court cases you mention turn out. However, it is the DOJ who has instructed the preponderance of the evidence standards. It is the DOJ bringing suit against many schools for not being strong enough against rapists. We are at the start of a turning point. Victims are no longer afraid to speak out. Rapists can no longer count on their silence to protect them. The more victims who speak out, the more of these serial offenders who will he exposed and removed from the general population. This is good for all of us. </p>