<p>Mom2learn is not making anything up. It was the harrassment and intimidation of reporting rape survivors that brought the DOJ to the table. The failure of the colleges to act on behalf of victims is one thing. The fact that they had been systematically operating to silence victims in order to avoid reporting vis a vis the Clery report is why we are finally getting some movement. </p>
<p>every cite I just made is from after 2010.</p>
<p>Also, and most importantly, acting as if this isn’t still a problem on college campuses is like walking through New Orleans after the wind stopped blowing during Katrina and acting like the damage from the storm was over.</p>
<p>I would simply like to point out that the fact that a justice system failed to punish an accused person in a particular case (or even in multiple cases) does not necessarily mean that the system is broken. It may simply mean that sufficient proof is very difficult to get in sexual assault cases. The victim may know for an absolute fact that she was assaulted, but there has to be proof beyond that to punish somebody. Some of the reports do suggest that colleges failed to properly pursue cases (such as when they didn’t interview witnesses, or when they were protecting athletes). So it’s important to investigate when there are claims that schools aren’t adequately pursuing cases. (I note, however, that in one of the cases discussed above in which a male student is claiming he was falsely accused and unfairly punished, he claims that the school didn’t interview witnesses who had evidence that supported his position. It’s possible that some schools just don’t do a good job with this because of a lack of competence.)</p>
<p>what does the fact that at school after school mulitple rape survivors are coming forward to say they were pressured into silence and harrassed, by both students and administrators, say about a system? Because those are four cases I cited, but I could come back here and cite 20 more.</p>
<p><a href=“Columbia University Accused Of Mishandling Rape Complaints - Gothamist”>http://gothamist.com/2013/12/11/columbia_university_accused_of_mish.php</a></p>
<p>from the article:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So, I’m not really surprised that a school is not encouraging students to go to the cops, but as a parent I would certainly encourage my kid to go to the cops if she called me and said she was raped last night. I don’t really give a flip what the school thinks and would be wondering why she is talking to the school in the first place. But, maybe that’s just me. </p>
<p>3 mom "And no it’s not victim blaming to point out that “victims” of criminal assault should report it to the police. "</p>
<p>The issue is that it is not being prosecuted when reported. </p>
<p>“It is not misogyny to point out that there are things that women can do to make them safer.”</p>
<p>I did not say so. However, saying that preventing rape is important and then only talking about what women can do is continuing to imply that rape is a woman’s fault and responsibility. </p>
<p>If someone posted that we need to prevent rape and only talked about men, there would be posts about how women need to be responsible. I agree with that. However, when I say that guys need to be responsible too, people seem perplexed. Why?</p>
<p>If the end, there seems to be no end to the roadblocks that people want to raise to keep campus rape cases out of court and away from any punishment. She didn’t report immediately, she didn’t get a rape kit, she had alcohol, she didn’t fight hard enough to be bruised, she didn’t seem upset enough after. </p>
<p>If she does all of that the college and law enforcement discourage filing charges and tell her that he will not be convicted. If she does not want testify it is said that it was dropped because it would be to hard on her to be compelled to testify. If she does it is said that it should be dropped because you can’t believe a word she says.</p>
<p>When can we get past the endless litany of excuses and have an honest conversation?</p>
<p>The truth is that all of this is driven by the fact that many people do not believe that putting a rapist in jail for 5-15 years is warranted. They believe it is not fair to ruin a young man’s life for something so minor. Additionally, they also believe that they can not publicly say such a thing. Therefore, they throw up roadblock after roadblock. Excuse after excuse.</p>
<p>Maybe the current sentencing is right, and maybe it isn’t, I do not know. I do know that until we address it, there will continue to be lots of excuses made.</p>
<p>@muchtolearn When cops and prosecutors tell someone that they don’t have a case that will likely result in conviction it’s not necessarily some anti-women conspiracy. Actually, they may not have a compelling case. If they go to trial and the guy is found not guilty, how is that helpful?</p>
<p>@ Flossy That is a good question.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Maybe he is found guilty and maybe he is not. That is for a jury to decide. That is how the process works. If they were that all knowing, we would not have any trials.</p></li>
<li><p>Dropping the case in sympathy for the victim is just a sneaky way to place more blame on the victim. If the case moves forward, it is all her fault. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Do you want that weight on your shoulders? You should probably drop the case. It is best for you. Let’s all just pretend that it did not happen.</p>
<p>In cases involving large powerful universities, many or all of the authorities from the college to the police to the DA benefit if the case is kept quiet. Prosecuting sports heroes in these towns is very unpopular, and creating any negative press about the school that they love is unpopular. They have a significant incentive to try and make an excuse such as the victim does not wish to pursue it. Not unlike prosecuting white for violence against blacks in the past. </p>
<p>Removing the “she didn’t want to testify” excuse shift responsibility away from the victim. The case moving forward is no longer her responsibility/fault. The case moves forward because the Prosecutor is doing his job and requiring her to testify.</p>
<p>Who can blame her then?</p>
<p>
And if the case doesn’t move forward, it is all her fault. </p>
<p>Do you want that weight on your shoulders? You should probably continue with the case. It is the best for all the women out there who didn’t speak up. Let’s push forward. </p>
<p>Just showing it goes both ways…</p>
<p>@ hunt
Much2learn, I feel that I should point out that others aren’t saying to you, “Why are you trying to railroad innocent people into prison?”</p>
<p>Rule #1:
Yes, in trying to prevent rapists (I mean, upstanding young men) from going to prison, and to protect xyz university from bad publicity, always ask anyone who pushes for justice, “Why are you trying to railroad innocent people into prison?”</p>
<p>I have no interest in putting truly innocent people in prison and did not say so. You did. </p>
<p>However, I am interested in accountability for the guilty. Why? Because, if there is no accountability for the guilty then criminals know they can act with impunity. You will not attenuate this behavior if you are not willing to prosecute it and establish accountability.</p>
<p>I would ask why it does not seem to bother you little that so many rapists are free to rape again? </p>
<p>@Much2learn </p>
<p>You are being a bit hard on people and equating their understanding and respect for our judicial system with acquiescence for people who assault. These positions are not the same. </p>
<p>Is the system perfect? No. (Well, none is.) </p>
<p>But, if someone follows the system and an accused assaulter is not tried, does it mean the person is approving of rapists going free? No. </p>
<p>If someone thinks that it is not right to force an accuser to testify, does that make him / her complicit in actively wanting to drop such cases? No. </p>
<p>And does it mean the person is blaming the victim? No. </p>
<p>Therefore, to accuse posters as much is inaccurate.</p>
<p>poet: I really like all your posts. Thank you for all the links. So on point.</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking about much2learn’s idea that, on this thread, intelligent posters may be interpreting the same events differently based on what experience they bring to the discussion, which seemed to me also really on point.</p>
<p>Have you read this book by Cahill? If so, opinions?</p>
<p><a href=“Books - Cornell University Press”>Books - Cornell University Press;
<p>*Rape, claims Ann J. Cahill, affects not only those women who are raped, but all women who experience their bodies as rapable and adjust their actions and self-images accordingly. Rethinking Rape counters legal and feminist definitions of rape as mere assault and decisively emphasizes the centrality of the body and sexuality in a crime which plays a crucial role in the continuing oppression of women.</p>
<p>Rethinking Rape applies current feminist theory to an urgent political and ethical issue. Cahill takes an original approach by reading the subject of rape through the work of such recent continental feminist thinkers as Luce Irigaray, Elizabeth Grosz, Rosi Braidotti, and Judith Butler, who understand the body as fluid and indeterminate, a site for the negotiation of power and resistance. Cahill interprets rape as an embodied, sexually marked experience, a violation of feminine bodily integrity, and a pervasive threat to the integrity and identity of a woman’s person.</p>
<p>The wrongness of rape, which has always eluded legal interpretation, cannot be defined as theft, battery, or the logical extension of heterosexual sex. It is not limited to a specific event, but encompasses the myriad ways in which rape threatens the prospect of feminine agency. As an explication that fully countenances women’s experiences of their own bodies, Rethinking Rape helps point the way toward reparation, resistance, and the evolution of feminine subjectivity.*</p>
<p>Do you have reading recommendations?</p>
<p>^^Just a thought…this might be a better topic for the Parent Cafe. You also might get more traction if you start a separate thread about feminist philosophy. </p>
<p>alh, if you are going to start a feminist thread, please do. I’ve been thinking of starting one because I have a lot of questions and commentary on that topic. </p>
<p>@ awcntdb
You have said a lot of things that I disagree with. In fact, I disagree with almost everything you say. However, on one important point, I do agree with you. That is that it would be much better if we could make the current legal system work instead of creating a sort of shadow legal system that is run by colleges. </p>
<p>I see conservatives denying the problem and they are dead wrong. I see progressives/liberals hell bent on setting up a Title IX based system. I don’t think that is a great either. Clearly there is a problem, and it needs to be dealt with. However, I would also prefer to avoid a Title IX based system, if possible. However, it is not reasonable to argue that the shadow system is not needed, and at the same time deliver a litany of excuses for why these cases are not being successfully prosecuted within the current legal system. </p>
<p>I still think the current system, utilizing all of the tools at its disposal, is capable of treating rape cases seriously, prosecuting them effectively and parsing the guilty from the innocent. If the system could demonstrate through the actions of our law enforcement branch, that the legal process is acting to support victims and actively and aggressively seek justice on their behalf instead of to further harassing them until they give up, and make an endless litany of excuses, then perhaps we would not need a thousand different colleges, each with its own process. Wouldn’t that be better for everyone?</p>
<p>What I see, unfortunately, is people saying that women need use the legal system, and then making a lot of excuses for why the legal system can’t actually convict the guilty. I do not think that that is a viable solution any more, too many people expect to see a reasonable percentage of these cases result in convictions. Wink, wink time is over. </p>
<p>I guess that this is the reason we are where we are today. </p>
<p>Around 800 posts ago I expressed that same thought Much2Lean</p>
<p>ahl, what is interesting to me, really, is not even all that esoteric. Rape is the biggest fear men have of going to prison. They fear rape more than death, when they think that this might be a real possibility for them. So, I’m always stunned when it is considered to be such a “no big deal” issue for women. Men fear rape in prison more than prison itself. When a cop wants to rub it in, they threaten rape in prison, not prison itself. So, that’s interesting to me.</p>
<p>Butler, Luce and Ingrary certainly did much to define the way objectification of women reveals far more about the man doing the objectifying than it does about the woman herself. On threads like this one, I frequently find the focus of a poster to be rather revelatory.</p>
<p>As for the thread itself, it is interesting to me that nobody has commented on the recent case against Columbia in which three women reported being raped by the same man, and yet he was never removed from the campus. I hope the three of them go to the police to at least get his name on the record. I’m sure the statute of limitations hasn’t even begun to tick. </p>
<p>The thing, also, that’s interesting, is that without the title IX cases being brought, the new rules being put into place: counseling reports to police, et al, would never have been brought to bear. I actually think without the title IX cases, even if the title IX issue never becomes the final adjudication place, we would not be talking about it. As can be seen at almost every college campus, the fear of the clery report has made colleges very anti report and anti filing. They want to present the false front of having no rape on campus. In order to achieve this they have systematically squashed the reports and filings. They have directed women to the campus security office instead of the police and hospital. This was standard practice. This was the cover up.</p>
<p>Being more interested in covering up the problem of rape on campus, they have been mostly interested in keeping it within their own “justice” system, anyway, and this has been absolutely tragic for the victims of this crime. Google the name of any university and add the word rape. See what happens.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This was the first I’d heard of it. (To be accurate, according to the linked article he is accused of raping two women and groping a third.)</p>
<p>Without knowing anything about the specifics of any of the complaints, it is very, very hard to understand why the university would not take swift action after the second complaint, at the very least.</p>
<p>My personal memory of this issue dates back to the 60s and early 70s, when feminists first attackecd the issue and one started hearing a lot about the way rape victims were treated by the legal system. That was the era when police departments started have officers with special training in dealing with rape victims, and things started becoming more humane. </p>
<p>I can’t figure out whether things have gotten worse again, or what. And if so, why. I do know that I find it terribly sad and terribly depressing.</p>
<p>I’ve been reading about the Columbia case for some time now. It’s surprising to me everyone hasn’t heard about it. However, I do realize “everyone” doesn’t read Huffpost, Slate, Salon, Jezebel every day. Of course, I don’t know what is reported in places I don’t read. All news is slanted.</p>
<p>“A world without rapists would be a world in which women moved freely without fear of men. That some men rape provides a sufficient threat to keep all women in a constant state of intimidation, forever conscious of the knowledge that the biological tool must be held in awe, for it may turn to weapon with sudden swiftness born of harmful intent… Rather than society’s aberrants or ‘spoilers of purity,’ men who commit rape have served in effect as front-line masculine shock troops, terrorist guerrillas in the longest sustained battle the world has ever known.”</p>
<p>Susan Brownmiller helped change the way our generation was able to describe what was happening to us. I don’t personally think anything has really changed. We just started naming it. I really think poetgrl has it exactly right this generation of young women is changing the rules. It is really amazing. </p>
<p>And I think some young men are participating in these changes as well.</p>