<p>If you have no shot at going pro in your sport I say it’s worth it. As long as you can pass and get a degree from one of those schools, you will have many opportunities at jobs. Although of course you will have even more opportunities if you do decent to well at these schools.</p>
<p>markcc, most of the kids we hear about on CC who end up going to the Ivies and highly selective schools are not necessarily “reaching up” to go there. They all seem to excel academically in high school in addition to excelling athletically. That said, many of them might not have made the cut on academics alone but that says more about how insane the college admisisions process has become than anything else. My personal feeling is that these highly selective schools are much harder to get into than they are to stay in once you are there. Also, at least at the Ivies, where there are no athletic scholarships, there is nothing forcing a kid to keep on with their sport if they find the academics require all of their time…</p>
<p>amen, 3xboys</p>
<p>“Sure you get to say you went to HYP or whereever, but if you struggle academically for 4 years and end up low in your class, is it really a good move?”</p>
<p>I actually had this issue with respect to S, an athlete at a very highly selective LAC. I asked a business person whom I respect, and he said that the fact that S was admitted to the LAC–even as an athlete–vetted him as “smart enough,” that many employers liked athletes generally, and that he would therefore improve his prospects by reaching academically, even if he did not excel. </p>
<p>Thus far, the advice has been spot on for summer jobs. In this tough market, he had two good offers (and probably would have had a third) despite doing just ok academically.</p>
<p>3xboys said it wonderfully. I am convinced that D2 would not have been accepted to her LAC without her sport. Not that she isn’t academically qualified, just that it is so darn hard to get in. She needed that “something extra” to be admitted.</p>
<p>Her LAC is the perfect fit for her. Her sport was her leverage. She gets a wonderful education and intends to take advantage of every opportunity afforded her. They get a great athlete. Both parties win.</p>
<p>Liked hearing your story EMM1. 3Xboys, I agree that many students qualify academically without the help of athletics and also that these schools are tougher to get in than stay in. But I really wasn’t talking about just staying in, but having a meaningful academic experience rather than just surviving. We had one friend who ended up at a high ranked program, non-Ivy and Div 1, she got injured freshman year and struggled to get into the flow when she healed, ended up dropping the sport, then struggled academically without the structure of the sport and tutors, etc. and dropped out of school. We felt that perhaps if she was a better fit for the school without the sport, she would have hung in there better. I do also give credit to at least some of the Ivies when I have heard of instances of stellar athletes turned down because they didn’t qualify academically. So perhaps this is isolated and really doesn’t happen that often.</p>
<p>Guess What! After getting all this great info and insight from all of you posters, I brought the subject up with my D and told her she needed to bring up the subject of likely letters with coach. And she said —oh yeah, awhile ago the coach mentioned something about a likely letter after I get my application in . . .</p>
<p>2924, HA! What I absolutely love about this is that your daughter is in charge of the coach conversations. This is sounding very, very good.</p>
<p>Markcc: I wondered the same thing, ie whether my D who is a superb athlete and very bright but totally focused at this point on her sport should be applying to a challenging school, and there are some very very “intellectual” schools I don’t think D would fit in with. But with respect to the one she wants to go to, I talked to a mom whose kid already goes there (same sport) and she assured me that the kids she knows on the team, who are much like mine, do just fine. I should note I do not agree with Schulman’s book The Game of Life: college sports and educational values" which came out about 10 years ago, advocating reducing sports in colleges, which developed quite a following, caused Swarthmore to cut football etc. I think sports is the one place you get real diversity–where else do you actually see kids of different races eating together in the cafeteria, hanging out together? I read the book, and the authors simply place no value on athletics. I bet they were lousy athletes, or mediocre at best. I believe in sound body, sound mind. I went to college in the days when half the applicants to a place like swarthmore did not have double 800s like they do now—and the kids who did not have 800s did just fine, and brought a nice mix to the student body. Lots of the Williams guys were smart, but not absolutely brilliant in an academic sense in those days–they did not all want to be professors. Producing professors should not be the only goal of highly ranked colleges in my opinion, but that is essentially the premise of that book. The schools I am familiar with are better off for having athletes if only because it brings a healthy mix the student body. Otherwise it is like dog breeds that get inbred. Don’t get me wrong, I love acadaemia, it is my own background. But I think it should be more diverse than just kids who get 800s, even if the school can accept their entire class from such a group. The kid who practices enough to be a champion has learned a different set of skiils than the valedictorian, but they both know excellence. It is the seeking of excellence that transfers into later life I think.</p>
<p>I do think there is definitely a phenomenon with athletes that some, not all, do best in school when they are competing, because of the structure. I have an older son who competed in hs and college and said he had a harder time with school when he wasn’t competing because he had so much more free time and it was harder to stay organized. I know that when I have a structured life, I accomplish more tasks (the ones I hate to do) than when I have a lot of free time because I know I can’t put the yucky tasks off when I have a lot on my plate, and when I have free time I keep saying, oh I’ll get to it later, so I am guilty of same thing, and I’m no athlete . . . .wish I were. I too had a friend whose kid was a star in hs (sports and academics) went to Di very large public univ, got disillusioned, quite team after freshman year , started drinking and dropped out after sophomore year. In freshman year she hated feeling like the sport she loved had become a job.</p>
<p>markcc, your story points to the importance of a piece of oft-repeated advice here on CC - kids should pick the school that they would want to go to if they could NOT participate in their sport. That said, at almost any school that an athlete could get into courtesy of a big athletic hook, you can find a range of course selections - from very easy to very, very hard. Similarly, some majors are harder and more demanding than others. She sounds like she may have struggled more from the loss of identity that came from losing her sport (and all the social support that comes with that) than from the school being too difficult.</p>
<p>2924SW, I totally agree. My S is a complete pain when he is not going to regular practices. He just passes his time harassing the rest of us while he procrastinates. I do better with structure too, so at least I know he comes by it honestly.</p>
<p>Below is a post I made on this site on April 2, 2005 which I entitled “A Twisted Story…” which summarized the emotional roller coaster my son’s experience in the Ivy recruiting process.</p>
<p>College athletics worked well for my son both in and out of the class room since it helped him get admitted to a great Ivy that he may never had had an opportunity to attend and has lead to a post grad opportunity.</p>
<p>That having been said parents should understand that if you are chasing a scholarship then you may be disappointed because many elite schools (Ivies/ NESCAC schools-- being the top Liberal Arts schools / Patriot League schools-- Colgate, Buckhell, et al., D3s schools and others) do not even offer athletic scholarships. Many non revenue sports at other D1 schools only offer limited scholarship money (ie. lacrosse 12.4 scholarshps per year-- see NCAA restrictions [Scholarships</a> By Sport](<a href=“http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm]Scholarships”>http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm)).</p>
<p>If you son/ daughter does get a scholarship you should understand that the money comes with a price since the award is a job requiring them to spend 20- 30 hours each week in practice & competition.</p>
<p>I hope my below 2005 post prepares families for the fact that that the recruiting experience may prove more difficult than you now expect; good luck.</p>
<h2>If you have any questions then private message me.</h2>
<p>A Twisted Story…
The good news is that my son’s college search came to a happy ending this week when he learned that he had been accepted into one of the more prestigious Ivy League schools. His admission was supported by a Coach at that school.</p>
<p>This news ends an experience that has been an emotional roller- coaster ride for my family during the past 9 months. </p>
<p>The experience has taught me a lot about the college recruiting process for non revenue sports and I would like to share my observations with you. I elected to provide this long post after I spoke today to a mother of a student in the same non- revenue sport as my son who was proudly telling the world that her daughter, who is a high school junior is being “recruited” because she has received letters from colleges. I hope the process is easier for this girl than my son however I have heard more stories from other parents that have endured an exhausting experience like ours rather than a simple straight forward recruiting process for their child. I do not believe the recruiting process is as simple as it at first appears.</p>
<p>The point I want to make is that merely because your son/ daughter receives promising telephone calls and letters or because a Coach gives you his “word” that your child will be admitted to his school you should not rest until you get the coveted acceptance letter in your hand. </p>
<p>Because my son participates in a non revenue sport and the Ivy group is a small circle I have purposely avoided using school or coaches names.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>We were advised to attempt to market our son by sending out letters with his sport resume to a approximately 10 Ivy and LAC schools. We included a copy of his unofficial transcript so as to not waste anyone’s time recruiting him if he clearly could not get admitted. In response to our mailing we received an encouraging reply from nearly every school. We thought that the process would be easy. I now believe nearly everyone receives a form letter of encouragement in response to their letter of introduction.</p></li>
<li><p>My son was promptly invited for an overnight weekend at one of the top Ivies ("Ivy #1). The Coach did not mislead us in any way. That Coach was a professional. The Coach at Ivy #1 told us that he would invite “x” number of candidates for my son’s sport position but he would only support admissions for 1/3d of those that visited. My son went to the school and fell in love with it but never heard again from the coach. As an adult I can distinguish the probability of rejection. A 17 year old kid had a more difficult time understanding the probability of rejection. My son was heart broke. Please prepare you son/ daughter for disappointment.</p></li>
<li><p>A few weeks later an assistant Coach at a mid level Ivy (Ivy #2) called on a Monday and summoned my son to be at their campus that Wednesday. We were told that he must be there at that time if he ever wanted to be considered for support in the admissions process. We dropped everything and made the trip of considerable distance. In hindsight I believe that a prospect that had previously verballed to the Coach at Ivy #2 may have wavered. My son was the replacement. The Coach told my son unconditionally that he had reviewed his transcript with admissions and that he would support him for early decision admission. My son was lead to believe that the support from this Coach was firm and in return that assistant Coach asked my son to give his word he would apply early decision. Two weeks later the Coach from Ivy #2 called and said that he could not support my son for ED admission. I spoke to the Coach and he told me that the school’s admissions office had concerns with my son’s academic record however that Coach told me that if my son did great in his January marking period then he would support him for admission into Ivy #2. My son worked like hell during the fall marking period and had his best marking period ever. This experience was the most positive aspect to the entire process because until this point of his life my son had more or less coasted and received good marks. He now understands that he could not coast. We sent the transcript to the Coach at Ivy #2 but received no reply. My son wrote more letters during January/ February to the Coach at Ivy #2 but never again received a return letter or call. I now believe that the Coach found another kid at the position and had moved on which he was entitled to do. I do however believe that this Coach was obligated to inform my son that there was no possibility of future support with admissions so that my son could adjust his plans accordingly. I have since talked to another parent of a high school student who dealt with this same assistance Coach at Ivy #2 and he described a similar experience for his son. The other father believes that this Coach lines up recruits by giving a false hope to provide fall backs if his first choice recruits commit to another school or are denied admission.</p></li>
<li><p>In early November my son received a call from an assistant coach at a 3d Ivy ("Ivy #3) who inquired whether he had any interest in his school. Because a 17 year old is inclined to tell the truth to a fault, my son relying upon the statements of the Coach at Ivy #2 replied that he had “committed” to Ivy #2. Following that call I explained the facts of life to my son and he attempted to ignite interest by telephone calls and e- mails to the Coach at Ivy #3 but that Coach never again called.</p></li>
<li><p>In late October my sons scholastic Coach became concerned that my son was not receiving the attention he believed he should have received. The scholastic Coach cold called an assistant Coach at Ivy #4. Ivy #4 is generally considered to be better academically than Ivies 2 & 3. The college Coach did not return the scholastic Coaches telephone calls. The scholastic Coach kept calling the assistant Coach at Ivy #4. I recall telling the high school Coach that it was OK to stop calling because the non response was a response however the scholastic Coach insisted that it a matter of respect that he deserved the courtesy of a returned telephone call from the college Coach at Ivy #4. Finally the coaches crossed telephone line and my son was invited for a visit to Ivy #4. When we arrived at Ivy #4 the college Coach was not particularly friendly and I feared that our invitation had only been a courtesy for not returning the telephone call. </p></li>
<li><p>In early December my son was invited by a top LAC to visit. The Coach at the LAC told my son and me that he had reviewed his transcript with the admissions office and was confident that my son could be admitted if he applied ED2. The LAC Coach said that he was less confident my son would be admitted if he did not apply ED2. During the car ride home my son said that he would hold out for Ivies #2 & 4. I told him he was being foolish; take the sure thing at the LAC and move on. He refused.</p></li>
<li><p>In the intervening months my son developed a number of choices. He was admitted to 2 National Universities both ranked top 50 by US News, and 2 Masters Colleges each ranked top 10 in their region by US News. One of these schools also would give him a 1/3d scholarship. [Note: remember that Ivies and LAC do not give athletic scholarships.]</p></li>
<li><p>We heard nothing from Ivy #4 after our visit until February when the Coach called and asked my son if he would attend if admitted. My son had liked Ivy#4 very much. My son said that he would attend Ivy #4 if admitted. Four weeks later the Coach from Ivy #4 called and asked my son to confirm that he would attend if admitted. Again my son said “yes”. By this time I believed that Ivy # 4 wanted him and my wife and I began to believe it was the best place for him. The more we read about the school the better we liked it.</p></li>
<li><p>This week my son learned that he had been admitted to Ivy #4 and the LAC. He will proudly attend Ivy #4 without a nickel of scholarship money. My wife and I believe that the experiences my son will receive in and out of the class room while attending Ivy #4 will create opportunities that will expand the choices during his life. The experience recruiting drama proved to be worth the end result.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>In conclusion let me tell you what may seem obvious: it is a big, big world out there and there are many many talented kids that are seeking the same place in the prestigious college that your child desires. There is some luck involved. At least for non revenue sports your son/ daughter will still be required to have good marks. It is great if your son/ daughter is successful in gaining admission to the school they desire however if they are not successful in being admitted to their dream school then that is still the same kid that you love. </p>
<p>Most important: Don’t give up.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>otis,
Thanks so much for telling this story. It illustrates a couple of things to me.</p>
<p>One, you did a great job entertaining lots of possibilities for a long time. It seems like some families get into a big hurry to pick the “right” match, and don’t give things time to unfold. Nice work.</p>
<p>Two, as much as I admire your intestinal fortitude for hanging in there through months (6-8?) of stress and uncertainty, in the interest of future recruits, is there anything you wish you or your child had done differently? I’m speaking of the things within your control. Obviously, you can’t make the Coach at Ivy #1 choose your child, but I’m sure you’ve reflected on that year a lot, and I wonder what, if anything, might have streamlined this. Or maybe you feel like the process was at it had to be, to end up with the result you are all so happy with.</p>
<p>Congratulations on surviving the ordeal!</p>
<p>^^^Yes, that would be helpful! DH is saying, “Does DS really need to visit several of these schools AGAIN during the fall?” I think so, in order for him to do an overnight visit and meet the team, but it sure is hard to fit it all in.</p>
<p>and another question- when does all of this happen? When are the official visits usually done? When does correspondence with a coach usually begin? And, most importantly, when do recruited athletes find out that they got into a school? Junior yr, senior yr? Can you even pin it down to the month anyone? this is a great thread :]</p>
<p>For anyone following this thread that is interested in DIII sports (I don’t know about Ivy schools) the absolute best thing you can do is buy (or borrow) the book The Sports Scholarships Insider’s Guide - Geting Money for College at any Division by Dion Wheeler. It is a book that really explains DIII schools and sports in a way that I did not even know existed. And, based on our personal experience with DIII sports, it is absolutely right on the “money” so to speak. Very eye opening, and very accurate.</p>
<p>DVC: I didn’t know there was any DIII money. Am I showing my ignorance? Could you share some of your pearls of wisdom from DIII experience?</p>
<p>my understanding is about oct 1st</p>
<p>I don’t know if it is my call or not, but as the original poster, I’d like to keep this thread focused on the Ivy League process. It seems to be different than other D1 and DIII schools.</p>
<p>Here is an interesting article I found when googling “Likely Letter ivy league”: </p>
<p>[Ivy</a> League Sports](<a href=“http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/admission-statement.asp]Ivy”>http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/admission-statement.asp)</p>
<p>treemaven, I agree. Let’s keep this thread focused on Ivy recruiting.</p>
<p>fulcrum22: about Ivy timing. This can vary by sport, but this is our experience.</p>
<p>Contact can go both ways, and anyone can start it.
If the student athlete is on a high school team, it’s not uncommon for them to get boilerplate athletic/academic questionaires from college coaches, including the Ivies, as early as their freshman year. Students can fill these out and send them back to coaches if they wish, which, at the appropriate time, will generate more mail/contact.</p>
<p>Students can contact Ivy coaches by email whenever they wish, but coaches may not feel comfortable communicating a lot until into the junior year. It is always OK for the student to contact the coach, especially if they are trying to set up an on-campus meeting prior to their senior year. </p>
<p>Students can also ask specific questions about the program, although a lot can be gleaned from the websites for each team, so don’t burden a coach with a bunch of questions you could have answered all by yourself: competition schedule, number of athletes on the team, typical experience/PR’s of recruited athletes coming out of high school, etc., is generally available on the team websites. Don’t ask the coach if you are recruitable or a match for their program until he brings it up. That would be considered a recruiting violation if he responds to that question too early in the process. You can probably figure out if you’re a match by other means.</p>
<p>That said, some Ivy athlete matches have a certain element of “self recruiting” about them. There are lots of athletes out there, but not many of them would be happy attending school and competing in the Ivy League. You can make the coach’s job easier if you point out your athletic talents and academic ability to him and express your interest.</p>
<p>Open season on coaches contacting and actively recruiting student athletes begins July 1st prior to senior year. </p>
<p>Official visits may be offered at that time, but the student can only travel after the first day classes commence at their high school, and can only take place in the senior year. And you can only make five visits.</p>
<p>Timing of likely letters is somewhat driven by the Nov 1st application deadline of the EA/ED schools. Even if your first choice Ivy is RD only, if you have an offer of a likely letter from an EA/ED school, you will want to mention that to the RD school and see if they can get you a likely letter before you would need to have submitted your EA/ED application to the other school.</p>
<p>Others with experience, please add to this, if I’m off, or if our experience isn’t a match for yours. More information/variations on this timeline would probably be very welcome!</p>