My children go to what could be the finest public HS in PA. The two oldest boys graduated(the second will, but has applied ED and was accepted) and have both done well in their college application process. The oldest took many APs, about as many as he could take and still participate in Orchestra. Graduated with only 1 A- on his transcript from a non-AP class his Freshman year. The next son’s EC was Track and XC and therefore was able to take a few more APs and will most likely graduate in the top 5 (of 500) in his class.
Lately the guidance department and administration is really pushing to only take those APs that really interest you. That it doesn’t matter if you only take 1 or 2 APs in your Junior and Senior year. That is good enough for any college…
However, I read that colleges are looking to see if you took the most rigorous course load your school offers and is concerned about how you do vs. the rest of your class. If my daughter, a HS Freshman/1st year, follows guidance’s advice will she be disadvantaged when she begins to apply to colleges?
The school is also really trying to stamp down grade inflation at the same time. So maybe it will work out, but I’m not sure I would advise my daughter to play that game.
So much depends on the school and kid. What do your older kids think and what do they advise the younger sib?
At our kids’ private HS, they mostly advised folks to only take one or two APs per year. We talked one-on-one with S’s guidance counselor and she laughed and said that guideline is for most kids and didn’t apply to S, whom she approved to take all the APs he wanted (he took all that fit his schedule with marching band).
I’d have an appointment for you and your younger kiddo to talk with the HS guidance counselor about your concerns and what they advise for YOUR kid.
You are right in that the most competitive colleges want to see the guidance counselor check that the student has taken the most rigorous schedule available at the HS. This does not always mean taking the most APs (ex. at our HS Latin 4 is more rigorous that AP Psych). If your D is shooting for top tier colleges, she can ask the guidance counselor each year if your D’s proposed schedule is sufficient for him/her to check the most rigorous box off on a college application.
I would ask what it takes for the GC to check off “most rigorous”. I’d ask how many APs kids have taken and gotten into top 20 schools. When my kids were applying at every college night, admissions officers did emphasize that you did not have to take every AP out there, but that they did expect you to challenge yourself. I never actually knew exactly how many APs were the norm.
My oldest ended up taking AP Comp Sci as a freshman, AP Bio as a sophomore, APUSH, AP Physics C (M and E), and AP Calc BC as a junior, and AP Econ, AP Latin and AP Chem as a senior. He took a post AP math course as well. My youngest was more of a history buff, but science really interested him. He took AP World as a sophomore, APUSH and AP Bio as a junior, AP Euro, AP Physics C (E and M), and AP Calc BC as a senior. As you can see neither of them took either of the AP English options, though most of their friends did. I don’t think it hurt either kid. Younger son didn’t get into quite as selective colleges as his brother did, but his SAT scores and grades weren’t quite as strong as his older brother’s either. They had great choices.
At any rate at our school I’d guess most of the top kids had 6 to 8 APs total. The school offered 22 APs BTW.
But it also depends on which AP courses. Some may not be that hard, and may be more like an honors version of a typical course (e.g. AP human geography versus 9th or 10th grade regular geography or social studies). Others may be the natural progression for a student a grade level ahead in the subject (e.g. AP calculus). Others may be significantly more difficult or more work than the non-AP option (e.g. often the sciences with labs or the history ones).
It may be the last of these categories where students may want to be more choosy. I.e. if a difficult or high workload AP option is not among the things that the student is most interested in, is it really worth taking? Is it really necessary to take all three AP sciences and/or all three AP histories, rather than just one (if any) of each?
I agree with ucbalumnus. Not all APs are created equal. For example NYS has a two year Global Studies requirement, so the year my kid did AP World they were experimenting with adjusting the curriculum to meet both the NYS Regent’s exam requirement and the AP stuff. Most kids who are not science oriented take 1 AP science (usually bio), or 1 of the easier ones like AP Psych. or AP Environ. Sci. Many of the STEM kids only take APUSH, having already been forced to do two years of Global Studies. (But basically all the advanced kids are tracked into that together unless they really, really object.) They’ll often take AP Econ or AP Gov because they have to take something for NYS anyway.
I think AP courses are a racket that, increasingly, high schools are not as in love with as before. It’s always good advice to pursue items of interest, rather than being obsessed with strategy that will (or will not) bear fruit many years from now.
If you are in, say, Lower Merion, the school system’s overall excellence tends to even out any perceived lack of 50 APs on the transcript. I think it’s wise to take some AP courses of interest, but not gratuitously fill up a schedule for the sake of appearances.
AP courses can equal college credit and therefore dollars later.
The extra credits may provide some breathing room in college to fill in for gen ed classes and make college easier.
There is a current trend to curtail their usefulness. I just wouldn’t start with MY kid to fulfill somebody’s agenda…
I’d have my kid do whatever to get into college successfully now.
And if your school gives extra GPA points for AP courses I’d go ahead and enroll my kid in the classes if they are capable of doing it.
Read “How to be a High School Superstar” by Cal Newport for insight into this. It is NOT a race to see who can take the most APs. What colleges want to know is if you can do the work. If your kid can get a good GPA with a reasonable number of APs, and take the full college preparation curriculum, then they are probably fine. Once they’ve shown they can do the work and get pretty good test scores, the next question is, “What else have they got?”. And THAT is where it is actually easiest for a student to differentiate. Going head to head with every other top student in the country on APs, GPA, and test scores is NOT the way to win over a college. Colleges are aching to find interested, interesting, genuine people. If your kid is one of those who has proven they can do the academic work, and can show those other qualities, your kid will have many good choices.
First of all, the main purpose of AP courses is not as an indication of course rigor although it does. First think about whether you are interested in it and your ability. It is sad that someone takes a full load of AP simply think that would help college application. For that, the GC is partly correct to tell the student to think about personal interest first but wrong in the reasoning because it is still focusing on college application. The number of AP should be limited by the schedule, availability, and the ability of the student not because having 1 or 2 per year is “enough for any college”. Choose the most rigor curriculum within one’s ability should be the goal of the student in enriching knowledge instead of for college education. If one is able to get good grades even with more AP, one should not be stopped from doing that because it is sufficient to be counted most rigor. Nevertheless, it is a very bad idea to overload with AP that affects the GPA. If one cannot maintain a good GPA, it indicates the course load is hitting the limit of the student regardless of what course rigor the GC may consider.
When colleges say they want students to have a challenging curriculum, choosing among the most demanding courses or similar, that doesn’t mean take as many AP classes as possible. Some example quotes from selective colleges are below: That said, it also isn’t the same as saying it doesn’t matter if you only take 1 AP class. Choose an appropriately challenging curriculum that also fits with your interests and goals.
Honestly, I think a lot of the talk about “rigor” by colleges is bunk after one has taken 4-5 honors or APs. After that, most colleges want to see high test scores (that may even be more important than grades, not that colleges admit this). & extracurriculars. Colleges also weight a “hook” much more than the APs – e.g. first gen, URM, recruited athlete, unusual skill/talent, etc. My S took 9 APs, including 5 his senior year (plus honors English) & earned A- or better in all of them. However, he had quite a few classmates at his small private school graduate with latin honors (top 20%) who didn’t take nearly as many APs/Honors as he did. They managed to get a high GPA freshman year & then kept it by taking only a few honors/AP courses & acing all their regular courses. Thus, some kids who don’t max out the rigor ended up with a 4.0 uw, while he had a 3.7 uw because he challenged himself. Many of those kids got into top 20 schools, just like the ones who took more “rigor”, so who’s to say if it really made any difference whatsoever in the long run.
The other thing we’ve found is that a lot of private colleges don’t take AP as credits in sci/math unless you score a 5. Some don’t give you credit, but let you pass out of a prereq (for example, my son was exempt from Freshman Comp I with a 4 on the Eng AP, but no credit). Thus, be strategic in what AP tests will really help you in the end. Senior year, my son knew where he was going to college & that he could only get math credit with a 5 on the AB Calc test. He knew that he wasn’t going to get that score no matter how hard he studied, so he pretty much blew that off in order to ace Gov, Econ Micro & Macro, which actually garnered him credits if you scored a 4 or better.
One last thing, if you are shooting for a top 25 school (or any school where the admit rate is under 25%) – know that the admissions game is just that – a game – which no matter the skill (strength of your child’s academic profile) there is more than a huge amount of luck involved in getting in. I’ll end with this – my son got waitlisted at a school that we believe he was way above the applicant average profile (Villanova), yet got into an Ivy League (Cornell) where he fell into the lower end of the spectrum. And he chose U of Miami due to a very generous merit scholarship
In this case, APs might not be the most rigorous options, so the GC’s advice may be quite sound. At our son’s school, no AP was the most rigorous course and the colleges know that, so many (most?) students take none, and it doesn’t affect their college opportunities one bit. My suspicion is that colleges know your son’s HS and are not tallying APs, but I agree with @HImom that a conversation with your son’s GC about what is best for HIM is a good idea.
I think students should take the most challenging curriculum FOR THEM. What this means is that a person shouldn’t take AP (or other rigorous) classes if they are truly beyond their reach and going to cause undue stress, nor should a person skimp on them for an easy “A” or to try and game a system. Learning to set and accomplish realistic stretch goals is a great skill in life and one that can lead to building confidence, self-esteem, and an interesting person. If your child is going to be bored taking easier classes, then by all means step up the rigor because taking the easy path in life can be a waste of time. But do it for the sake of personal growth and learning, not to gain acceptance to any particular college.
I think this is trying to prevent people from taking AP Environmental Science and AP Human Geo and doubling AP Stats and AP Calc just to have more APs/get AP Scholar. It is not the most AP wins.
We heard this same message from the GC’s, they tried to diminish its importance because the reality is that most kids cannot handle 4-5 APs a year during high school. But there are some strong students who really love to learn, and do better when they are challenged. My pups had 16 and 17 APs, because they could. They understood that in order to have any shot at val or sal, which meant a full tuition to Flagship State, then they’d have to load up on AP’s because there were lots of other kids who would be doing the same thing. As @gouf78 said above, AP’s often add weight to GPA, which is used for determining class rank. Especially in public schools, the most selective colleges want to see a top class rank.
@bopper - I respectfully disagree, because in some public school situations, it is undeniable that having the most APs and doing great at them wins. Of course I do not mean that anyone who takes less than 10 APs is doomed to a crappy college and horrible life - just that those kids have not had close to the same admission results (nor merit awards) at the top 50 schools.
There is no doubt that the elites are accepting some students without lots of AP’s from some schools, but the reality is that that message really depends on your high school. Coming from an “average” private high school, or a top public high school, a student does not need to have as many AP’s to be seriously considered. But coming from an “average” public school, a student REALLY needs to stand out, and even then its a crap shoot. We have no doubt that our pups would not have been accepted to nearly as many elite schools if they had not challenged themselves so much.
The sad thing is that my eldest would say aphuman geo was the single most useful course she took in high school as it gave her the best understanding of current events. Not an option for her sister, who will have to slog thru more rigorous AP courses of little interest so she can demonstrate “rigor”. The process is seriously broken.
@3puppies You are right, in the rare case that being val/sal or top 7% means scholarships/acceptance to flagship, then it is worth planning your HS career around that.
Yes, AP human geography seems to be a good course for strong / honors 9th-10th grade students, even though it is of dubious value in terms of college credit. It shows how AP has expanded beyond its original intent of evaluating knowledge of college level material for advanced placement to attempting to offer model high school courses and curricula. And it also shows how non elite high schools do not seem to be motivated to offer many additional useful courses without the external incentive of AP.
