To: Doctorjohn (or anybody else for that matter)

College Majors Musical Theater Major
21

<p>"I do not think getting a BFA is akin to "foregoing college" or "stopping the educational momentum". "</p>

<p>With all due respect, I wasn't referring to a theater BFA when making the above comments. I was referring to a student who is interested in being a dancer and foregoes college in order to pursue that goal. My junior daughter has a very good friend who is a senior and a dancer. She is also a wonderful student (high test scores, wonderful GPA, lots of extracurriculars, etc.). But, she is also a gifted dancer. I have to admit that we were a little disappointed to find out that "Abbey" had decided to enter a professional company instead of going to college. But, like I said also, dance is different from college in that dancers have a small window of opportunity to get in a company and succeed. Our concern is whether "Abbey" will be willing to go back to school IF things don't work out for her. </p>

<p>Of course a theater degree is college. I never said otherwise. But, I was also referring to whether or not a student would be happy being a teacher, for example, if dreams of performing didn't come true for them. It just seems to me that the kids who truly want the BFA wouldn't be happy unless they were on the stage.</p>

<p>It's only an observation.</p>

22

<p>"You asked if the goal of studying theater is to get a job in professional theater? I'd imagine when someone picks a college major or degree program, they are thinking of hopefully doing something in that field down the line but it is not like a failure if they change course at some point either."</p>

<p>One more thing.....many, many students pick degree programs without really knowing exactly what that program is about. Some kids just go to college with the intent of graduating with ANY degree and later going on to graduate school. And, also, there is not guarantee that ANYBODY will get a job in their chosen field. My point, however, is that in fields like medicine, for example, AND musical theater, the student enters these programs with the intent of graduating and finding meaningful employment in these fields. Not getting a job after graduation is no measure of whether they were successful in their education, of course, but the goal is to get that professional theater job. At least that's how I see it. </p>

<p>And, of course, it's not an indication of failure if they decide during school that whatever major they chose is not for them. I know several students who have spent countless dollars changing majors.</p>

<p>"Education is also part of being a person with a developed mind, job or not job. "</p>

<p>Absolutely. If my child gets a degree in rocket science, but ends up digging ditches, that child will ALWAYS have that degree.</p>

<p>Another point.....one of my best girlfriends in high school was a VERY gifted pianist and vocalist. She was wonderful and accepted into every college that she applied to (of course, that was many years ago and the competition has since gotten stiffer). As life will have it, we drifted apart and now live on opposite sides of the country. About a year ago, I "found" her through Classmates.com and e-mailed her only to find out that she never did get that college degree because of illness. And, this was one student we all thought would be terrifically successful. But......more important than anything.....she's very happy with her husband, and three gorgeous children. And, that's what it's really all about, Charlie Brown. </p>

<p>My only reason for posting is my concern for my junior age daughter who wants to pursue auditions. My family is deadset against any kind of theatrical degree because they feel it's not a marketable degree unless she gets a job in professional theater, which, of course, is very "iffy". I'm concerned about her naivete that these programs are easy to get into for dedication, smart, talented young people. I'm just trying to get her to understand she needs some kind of alternative IF things don't work out the way she chooses.</p>

23

<p>I guess everyone approaches things differently. I don't care what my kids major in during college. I never influenced them or persuaded them to choose something else. I think if one has a passion, like one of my kids does, then go for it. So what if she does not make it in that field? So, she tried and went for her goals and her passions. There is so much else she can still do. It is not like she lost if she did not get a professional theater job. Her training will serve her well in a myriad of endeavors, the way I see it. So, I see her striving to pursue study in her craft and going for a life on the stage. Everyone knows it is a tough field to make it in. You do not know til you try. Further, if it is a deep seeded passion and you are driven to pursue it, nothing or nobody can stop you. I wouldn't even attempt to do that with my kid. Musical theater is part of her being. She says it is her raison d'etre. You just can't keep that down. Why would one try to? And while she would love to work on stage after her education, it is not like that is her only definition of success or if the degree was worth pursuing. Like I said before, there is so much else she is skilled or even interested in doing....lots related to theater and even some things not directly related. This degree can lead to many things. The goal, as I see it, is not narrowly defined as obtaining a professional job on stage. While that is what she has a strong desire to do, it is not like the only thing she could do. If one is going to pick their college degree program as to the likelihood of obtaining a professional job in it (in this case, on stage in a musical), then maybe they should not enter this field. Who knows if they will make it or not? And if they don't? They may be JUST as happy doing something related...like I say, my child gets lots of joy from creating the shows, coming up with the concepts, writing scripts, musical arranging, musical directing, giving voice lessons, working with kids in theater, using theater as a vehicle for social change, directing, choreographing.....and likely much more that I don't know about. While it would be great if she gets work as an musical theater actress because of her passion and she just seems to belong on stage, I would be just as happy for her if she ends up doing one of these other things I mentioned, or perhaps something else that we don't even know about yet. </p>

<p>I say, if you are passionate and driven in this field...go for it....don't let anyone stop you with the fear that you might not make it with such tough odds.....and if you can't make a go of it....pick up on other facets of it or other skills or interests you have and run with that and keep your foot in the theater world. If it is in your blood, you can't get rid of it all together. </p>

<p>I am not into picking a college major or a college based on career prospects. Study what your mind and heart leads you to. The rest (including a job) will follow. If your life is the theater, make it your life in one way or another. That may mean on stage or in another capacity or at night in community theater after your other job. Wherever it leads....go with it. </p>

<p>I must tell you that I never persuaded my kid one way or the other or ever discussed the terrible odds of making it on stage. She has a passion, we supported it and we'll stand by and be happy as long as she is. I doubt her happiness will solely ride on whether she gets a professional job on stage or not. I hope she continues to work on stage because it seems to be her life and she hopes to use her stage work to make an impact on the world. But if she ends up doing that behind the scenes rather than IN the scene....her education will still have been very worth it in my eyes. I say let a kid pursue his/her passion and not worry about which major will lead to which job. I never steered my kids to their choice of major but just helped with the resources (and driving of course, lol). </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>soovievt -</p>

<p>Brava! Brava!</p>

<p>I figured out a way to be around 'theater people'. After deciding that I didn't quite have the stamina to be an actress....but knowing I liked theater - I have a degree in English and Dramatic Arts from UC Berkeley.</p>

<p>I became a Casting Director in LA for 12 years. For commercials and TV. Yes - after saying over and over to my mother that I would NEVER do anything but LIVE theatre!! But I made a very successful career at something that I didn't even know existed when I started college. (No degree to learn how to do that!)</p>

<p>These kids will find their way. Somehow. Someway.</p>

<p>Just keep driving! My job now to help the next generation.</p>

<p>janenw</p>

25

<p>Theater-- A marketable degree? </p>

<p>Yes! I've known theater majors who've gone on to Law School. I know a current BFA student who is seriously contemplating a medical degree. It has been done and can still be done. Almost any career is possible after devoting a chunk of time to Theater Studies. Even the late Pope John Paul spent a great deal of his youth as an actor, poet and playwright.</p>

<p>While that is an extreme example, I suggest you take a good long look at all the posts on this discussion board. The many threads cover a diverse range of topics, but everyone here shares the same passion. Musical Theatre is in their blood. A pursuit of theatre arts is not just a career choice, but an all-consuming "raison-d'etre" (to quote soozievt). Choosing a more "practical" major is just not an option for these souls.</p>

<p>BFA programs are rigorous. Some schools do allow for a double major, but students who choose this path are clearly devoted to two disciplines. They are not choosing a second major as an "alternative". In fact, I would wager that most kids who are talented in MT also are vastly talented in other unrelated areas. A tap-dancing math whiz? A singing geography genius? A musical-comedy Latin scholar? Yup, it is not even possible but very very likely.</p>

<p>If your D and your family are truly hesitant about pursuing an MT degree, than I would strongly suggest looking into a good BA theater program. This would allow for some more flexibility. If your D is comfortable with this option, than she can apply to some reputable BA programs and also audition for a few audition-based BFA ones. Many students on this board have done this exact thing.</p>

<p>Now, realistically, we all know that 10 years down the road, not everyone posting here will be earning a good living on the stage. Will they be crushed? Hard to say. But what constitutes a success in the theater world? I personally know of two professional actors who had --more than 10 years doing Broadway and National tours. Now both in their early 40's, they have moved on to doing other things. One of them has gone back to school for an MFA (he hopes to teach and direct). The other one is teaching dance, happily married to a pit musician (who currently plays the clarinet in a hit Broadway show) and making the switch to commercials and voice overs. </p>

<p>Soozievt and I both know a young man who had a successful, long run in a famous Andrew Lloyd Weber Show. Currently, he is directing other young BFA hopefuls at a summer training program. He is still very talented, still happy and is considering many options for his future. His story is far from over.</p>

<p>I don't believe that one can measure SUCCESS/FAILURE in black and white. There are shades of grey, a million variations and countless possibilities.</p>

26

<p>Freelance, excellent post. But hey, you stumped me...who is this young man we both know who had a long run in a famous Andrew Lloyd Weber show? I'm sure I know the person but I don't think that I knew that whoever this is had done such a show! I can't think of knowing that information about anyone I know. Don't post his name but give me a hint as to who he is or how I know him! </p>

<p>In any case, I believe many of these kids will make their mark on the world whether on stage or off!
Susan</p>

27

<p>Wow, Freelance, you were on a roll. That was a great post and so true. Going even further with these theater majors, my daughter was involved with a theater group composed mostly of adults. At first I thought it was just people who were theater buffs. However, as time went on and I got to know these people, they were conservatory and MFA graduates. They all had success in the field but chose to move on to other ventures.</p>

<p>Yet, they all had the deep seeded desire to do theater. This company has grown like you would not believe. The members are extremely committed. They have gone from rehearsing in people's dens to buying a historical building, with a theater and restaurant, hosting classes and putting on a mainstage season. They have a paid artistic director and adminstrative staff. </p>

<p>Some of the actors are equity and sag and have credits which include film, TV, region theater & Broadway. Their other jobs include medicine, law, business owners, PhD's, advertising and so on. Their credits are never listed in the program because that is not important - their craft and the theater are important and each night the audience is treated with amazing talent!</p>

<p>And just to show the opposite end of the spectrum, my oldest child, is a math and science major which seems so much more sensible, right?<br>
At this point, he is not quite sure this is what he wants to do for the rest of his life and may try business after he graduates. The point is, these kids are young, let them study what they love and good things will come from it. It may turn into a life long passion or a start of a career. Certainly, the skills they learn in theater are extremely valuable, such as being able to stand up in front of large groups and presenting themselves, not to mention the writing skills that seem to go with the territory. Good luck and I hope this helps.</p>

28

<p>Soozie-- here's a clue:</p>

<p>Stepsister's director.</p>

29

<p>"If your D and your family are truly hesitant about pursuing an MT degree, than I would strongly suggest looking into a good BA theater program. This would allow for some more flexibility. If your D is comfortable with this option, than she can apply to some reputable BA programs and also audition for a few audition-based BFA ones. Many students on this board have done this exact thing."</p>

<p>Which is exactly, what my daughter is most probably going to do. I just think it's vitally important to have a "backup" plan since this business is so subjective. We've looked into some good BA programs and have liked what we've seen. Most have plenty of room to secure a decent minor, too. </p>

<p>O.k., another question then. If a student decides that theater is their life, yet they are concerned about employment possibilities after graduation, and therefore chooses another, more marketable major, what are the possibilities of being accepted into an MFA MT program without the BFA? That's something we've thought about. A good friend of ours is a talented dancer, but has decided to minor in dance in college and secure a business degree, which, of course, is more marketable. Upon graduating with the BA in business administration, she wants to pursue an MFA in dance. What are her chances of being accepted into a graduate performing arts program without the undergraduate training?</p>

<p>More food for thought......thanks for any responses.</p>

30

<p>A thought......while the parents on these forums are fountains of knowledge through their own experiences with their own children, are there any people (other than doctorjohn), who are actually working these fields and could give me clearer, less subjective answers to my questions. While I appreciate so many responses, I can't help but feel the emotion underneath some of the posts, and would really benefit more from a "professional's" point of view.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

31

<p>I was just reading these posts to my HS freshman (MT college hopeful) daughter, and her comment was "but it's not up to the parents."
Aaahhh, to have such clear drive at that age!
I started out as a chemistry major, switched to business, worked in marketing....but never found that kind of passion!
Why did we all allow our children to take dance, voice, acting, etc.? Because they liked it, and were most likely good at it. Why encourage it at a young age and then discourage it as a career choice?
Let's just be glad that they want to go to college....</p>

32

<p>It may not be "up to" the parents, but in some cases the parents have a strong say in "it" because of the heavy financial burden. I would never think that I want the final word in my D 's decision, but I certainly intend to weigh in on the discussion about her decision, and possibly help her think of issues she might not consider on her own at 18.</p>

<p>When I say "decision", I don't mean whether to be a theater professional - that's a given for her. I mean how, and where, and how much debt to take on to do it, and by what path.</p>

33

<p>MegsMom60,</p>

<p>I hope you will take my suggestion about your concerns in the way it is intended. I have read all of your posts and the posts you have gotten in return, including the pretty clear opinion of Doctorjohn, our highly respected resident "professional." And while it is clear that it is often very difficult to be objective about your own children, I think that the advice you have been given is not purely subjective, wrapped in the emotion of our children's desires. It is coming from a range of parents who read and post to these forums - from those who totally support their children pursuing a BFA in MT to those who have been dragged, kicking and screaming, into letting their children go after this dream; from those with a wealth of experience in the performing arts to those who confess to being clueless about the MT college admissions/audition process and the career that follows. Please know that I respect your concerns for your child's future. I would hazard a guess that all of us, myself included - and I fall into the category of major supporter of my D's passion - share the concerns that you have articulately voiced. Bottom line - we're all parents who want the best for our children. But here's the "but" that I sense in your posts. It feels as if you are committed to continuing to ask for "advice" until you find someone, preferably a "professional," who will give you a reason you can take to your D to convince her to do what you want her to do. What does your daughter want? I'm not saying that our children should be allowed to make this decision in a vacuum, but I do believe that you need to decide who will make the FINAL decision about what where your D will go and what she will study. Here's my two cents: Advise her - yes! Help her find information - yes! Provide her with clear and honest information about what your family desires and can afford - yes! Be her emotional rock and shoulder to cry on if she decides to do some auditions - yes! But in the end, if she is not the one to make this decision, with a full heart, backed up with solid information and your support, her chances of success, and more important, happiness, will be compromised.</p>

<p>Do take into consideration what has been said by the folks here from whom you have solicited advice. But most importantly - listen to your daughter.</p>

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<p>MegsMom...This is a message board made up primarily of students and parents interested in colleges for musical theater. Some of these parents might have jobs related to theater (not me, however) but other than that, you are not going to find a mix of working theater professionals on this forum. DoctorJohn is INCREDIBLE as a willing resource person or advisor as the director of a MT program at Otterbein. His willingness to give that perspective is appreciated by everyone. But other than that, the response you are going to get are from students and parents. </p>

<p>If you need more of a "professional's" point of view....I suggest asking those in the field and those at the college programs directly. </p>

<p>I think those who opt to do a BFA in theater do so because of a desire to pursue this field. There are no guarantees (even with any other major like math or history or architecture or business). I don't think the folks choosing to major in theater are concerning themselves at that juncture with the marketbility of the degree. They are going to college to pursue an education (like even a liberal arts major might do) and they have hopes or goals of working in that field and they might get work or they might not and if not, they can use their education and skills and move in a different related or even unrelated direction. Many folks change direction as the years go on. Theater majors are not the only ones. </p>

<p>In my opinion, for grad school admissions for MFA in acting or in dance, I would think it would be helpful if the applicant had done a BA in that field or a minor or other work in the field as an undergrad. For instance, someone applying for a MFA in theater might have gone to a liberal arts college and double majored in theater and something else. That might be a typical candidate...someone with a BA or minor in the field. It might be harder to get in if the student did not study the field at all as an undergraduate. There will be an audition to get in, for instance. </p>

<p>I guess some people pick college majors based on what job it will lead to and how marketable the degree will be. But be aware that some pick based on a love of the subject, a desire to get an education and a knowledge that such an education will be valuable no matter what job they end up with down the line. That is my opinion of the various ways folks go about this decision. I am not a professional, however (at least not in theater, I should say...I am a professional in the field of education though). </p>

<p>Susan</p>

35

<p>Theatermom, I had not seen your post when I was writing mine above. But it is excellent advice in my opinion. </p>

<p>I think your post points out that it is the student herself who must follow her path. The parent can ask the questions and angles for her to think about and provide resources to help with information. But if a student's desire to pursue something is squelched, I think later on that student MIGHT come back to resent it....like say, "I had always wanted to pursue intensive training in theater but my parents discouraged me so here I am studying business management or here I am at this job at the office and I never got to try what I REALLY wanted to do". And maybe what they wanted to do might not have ever worked out (ie., not gotten cast at a professional theater) but they will have tried and all would not be lost cause she would have had an education and that will lead to something in her future....a job of some sort. </p>

<p>I guess parents go about this in different ways. For us (not saying this is right for everyone), our kids took the lead as to either what they wanted to study or where they wanted to go to college, and we supported them, found the resources, provided the activities, drove, drove some more, took them to the colleges they wanted to visit, and let them decide. We had no preconceived notions of what we wanted them to study (I truly do not care) or which college they would go to (again, did not care). We only cared that they got to do what they wanted to do. For now, both my kids are happy with their decisions and the choices they were given. How it will be when they enter the work force, who knows? But they surely aren't gonna be blaming me for anything in that respect. They made their choices, pursued their dreams and thanked us for supporting THEIR dreams. I'd worry a little if I had told them what they should do because they'd always wonder "what if". And after all , it is THEIR education and THEIR life. I see it as their decisions to make. As Chris explained, the parents can ask the questions and provide the resources but the ultimate decision is the child's and that does not mean it is in a vacuum. The decisions are discussed but it is more like "what would you like to do? if you choose this school or this program, what are its benefits? if you want to do X, have you thought about looking into it?" stuff like that. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

36

<p>Freelance, I feel pretty dumb....ok, yes, J...meow. :D</p>

37

<p>One other viewpoint. As my d is a junior, we have just begun this process. One of her "fallback" positions is to major in Arts Administration (different schools have different names for the major). Some schools (about 25) have both an mt major and arts admin major- Ithaca and Otterbein being 2 of them. Some require a fine arts minor. Some offer arts admin as a minor with a bfa degree. She can't imagine a life without mt/theater so this was presented to her by one of her teachers as an option. I had never heard of it - it's a fairly new degree.</p>

38

<p>chrism--</p>

<p>I think that's the tough decision......what path to take. It certainly can be a heavy financial burden, and it's tough to balance costs, school location, training and end result.
To have parents so concerned about their children making the right choices...hopefully the kids realize how lucky they are to have this. The theatre people I have been around are such loving, supportive groups...I can see why my children love it so much.</p>

39

<p>St8gemom,</p>

<p>Just a clarification - on what path to take - my D knows the end goal, but where I help her is in understanding that there are multiple paths out there to reach her goal. I have never tried to influence her choice of end goal.</p>

40

<p>Thank you to everyone who has posted in response to my original concerns. I am not trying to lead my daughter in any particular way but I am trying to get as much information as possible so as to GUIDE her in making right decisions. As with all teenagers, she is, of course, very opinionated with what she wants to do and my husband and I support her wholeheartedly. It is not a question of money, but rather a question of whether or not a fine arts degree would be in HER best interests. When speaking of a performing arts degree, because there is so much passion and utter determination involved, it is our concern that our child will not make her decision based on emotions, rather than on practicality. Again, we'll support her no matter what, whether she succeeds or doesn't quite make it, but we think it's vitally important that she understand the odds she is up against. I'm not negating the benefits of a performing arts degree, I'm only being pragmatic, knowing the horrendous acceptance rates. Up until now she's been wonderfully successful in musical theater, playing leads in almost everything she's auditioned for, including professional theater. As a parent reading through these forums and seeing the acceptance rates, I'm trying to get her to understand the subjectivity of it all, and that she just might not get into a BFA program, no matter what her resume and/or talent.</p>

<p>When I said I was looking for "professional" advice, I meant no disrespect to all the students and parents out there who have taken the time to respond to my concerns. I was hoping, however, after seeing how many "views" there are on these forums that perhaps someone from ANY program would be able to give me more of am objective view about these programs and the statistics of kids who are actually able to make use of this degree after graduation. </p>

<p>Again, thanks for all your help. I've found these forums to be chock full of wonderful advice, but some posts do seem to have more personal emotions behind them. </p>

<p>I guess it once again comes down to what is in the best interest of a particular student. My daughter has a lot to think about.</p>