To: Doctorjohn (or anybody else for that matter)

<p>That's the thing, none of these decisions are a direct straight line. </p>

<p>So, BFA in MT does not then necessarily equate to step 2: professional musical theater work on stage. </p>

<p>Let's look at this from two ends. </p>

<p>One, there are many paths to the end goal of musical theater actress. BFA is not the only path to get to that job. College may not even be necessary, for instance. I admire ChrisM because she has a child whose end goal is musical theater actress and when one path to get there has not necessarily opened up this year, she has guided and supported her D to other options of pursuing her craft to get there. </p>

<p>The other way to look at this not being a straight line is that for the kids who do a BFA in MT, they may not end up as a professional musical theater actor and other options will abound for work. </p>

<p>So, in both scenarios, from one end to the other...A does not necessarily equal B. You need a lot of letters (variables) on both ends of this equation. I mean many paths/options on the left side to get to the goal of professional actress as well as many options on the right side of the equation for those who enter a college degree program in theater and the many paths they might take with their careers later on. </p>

<p>It really is not a straight line on either end of this equation. As parents, you can help inform your kids, provide resources, discuss the options and let them pick. Who knows just what will be in four or five years. Things change. Education will always be worthwhile as a human being regardless of job. Actors will make it on Bdway who never went to college. All these paths are possible. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>One more point....one of the things we've told our child in choosing a career path is that nothing is written in stone. Life is full of changes based on experiences and just life itself. Like I mentioned concerning my girlfriend who never got the degree.....you just never know. We will support her no matter what, even if she starts XYZ University and feels she can't handle the pressure, distance from home, etc. Home is always home. We will love and support her unconditionally. (I'm afraid some of my previous posts have outlined me and my family as being controlling. I didn't mean for it to come across that way.)</p>

<p>But, again, we just want her to understand that when speaking of thousands and thousands of dollars (and money is not that much of a concern, really, but still.......), she needs to take responsibility of going into a degree program fully informed. That's all we really ask.</p>

<p>MegsMom60 wrote: "When I said I was looking for "professional" advice, I meant no disrespect to all the students and parents out there who have taken the time to respond to my concerns. I was hoping, however, after seeing how many "views" there are on these forums that perhaps someone from ANY program would be able to give me more of am objective view about these programs and the statistics of kids who are actually able to make use of this degree after graduation."</p>

<p>That is why I was suggesting that if you are looking for professional advice, you likely won't find it here and so you might want to, for example, ask the faculty at the programs your child has applied to, what their graduates from the last five years are now doing. At most BFA programs we went to for auditions, this topic was part of their presentation. Some even gave out lists of what recent graduates are now doing. That is where you might get answers to your questions. </p>

<p>Other than that, you are getting opinions of those who have gone through or are going through this process as parents with their kids. I do not see the responses as emotional but rather as from a parental perspective. </p>

<p>You may need to go to working professionals and ask this question as well as to the BFA programs directly and ask it. Then you will have gathered up the information you seek. I happen to think this forum is a wealth of information and perspectives even if not from professionals because many here have dealt with these issues and have been to the programs and are in similar situations. That has value as a resource, as well. For professional advice, or objective opinions as you put it, you need to go talk to the professionals which is not who is represented on these forums. I had suggested that earlier. Even so, since the question was posed on a parent/student message board, I, as well as others, are chiming in with our perspectives, albeit not professional ones.</p>

<p>Your original post actually directed a question to me specifically so that is why I participated in this discussion as I would not have opted to ignore someone asking me a direct question. I think this discussion has been fruitful since many are reading here ,not just the person who posed the question itself.</p>

<p>Soozievt wrote:
"Other than that, you are getting opinions of those who have gone through or are going through this process as parents with their kids. I do not see the responses as emotional but rather as from a parental perspective." </p>

<p>Perhaps my use of the word "emotional" was a wrong choice. Yes, the responses are from parental perspectives. But, I feel that parents do tend to answer questions with a personal passion (and therefore, an emotion) with regard to what they are experiencing themselves with their own children, even if they intend to help others. Soozievt's own posts, while intending to help others, definitely have a lot of her personal experiences behind them, which is why so many people enjoy reading this forum, and in particular, Soozievt's posts, because she is able to give advice based on personal experiences, and therefore, some emotional content is inevitably present. The emotion behind a person's responses are what makes these forums so interesting. It gives cyberspace a more "human" quality. People can look at their own situations and compare them to others who are in the same boat. The old saying that "you have to walk a mile in a man's shoes", etc. is what is so interesting on these forums and allows people to understand how others have been able to get through the process. </p>

<p>I do need the objective "professional" advice, and will find ways of getting it, but the humanness of this forum is helping, too.</p>

<p>Thanks again to all.</p>

<p>MegsMom60,
From what I understand, MFA department heads generally encourage students to get a BA degree. Kellster actually put quotes from two saying as much on the Theatre/Drama thread in post #203. Remember, however, that there are very few MFAs specifically in MT though most of the good MFA Acting programs include some MT training. Also remember that getting an MFA entails being in school for seven more years.</p>

<p>As for the whole BA vs. BFA thing, that should be a matter of what is better for the person - NOT just career aspirations. In case you haven't seen it already, there is a section on this in the [FAQ[/url</a>] which deals with the question. There is also a test Doctorjohn put together at the end which you can have your daughter take. This might be of some help to her in deciding which is her best path. The Educational Theatre Association also has a nice [url=<a href="http://www.edta.org/rehearsal_hall/choices.asp%5Darticle%5B/url"&gt;www.edta.org/rehearsal_hall/choices.asp]article[/url&lt;/a&gt;] on the topic. I personally don't think you should pursue a BA as a way of "hedging your bets" or thinking it is something that gives you more options because it simply doesn't. If you look at the curriculums at most schools, it just means you're sacrificing intensive training for the sake of taking a bunch of introductory level courses in a lot of varied subjects without going into any real depth in anything. Rarely do you go beyond the sophomore level outside your major. Don't read that as me knocking that path, though. I think it's a very legitimate educational choice for a lot of people - especially those who plan to go Ivy League/Top LAC or those who think they MIGHT want to pursue theatre as a career, but aren't sure, yet. </p>

<p>If she decides on an BA, something she should ask about is their placement record in the better MFA programs. I actually wrote a long post on evaluating BA programs on Theatre/Drama at [url=talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=157&page=13&pp=20]post #253](<a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/%5DFAQ%5B/url"&gt;www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/) which might be of some help if she decides to go that direction. Just don't force any square pegs into round holes for the sake of "hedging bets." Remember that when you hedge, you sacrifice potentially higher returns on a more aggressive investment. In this case, you're not really insulating yourself against losses, either. You can't go wrong if you follow your bliss. :)</p>

<p>chrism,</p>

<p>What I meant was different schools could give you a different end result, based on what those schools have to offer and how that fits with your individual child....</p>

<p>Lots of good thoughts on this thread. For those interested in a professional's viewpoint, I recommend Robert Cohen's ACTING PROFESSIONALLY, now in its sixth edition. Cohen was one of the founding faculty members of the department at the University of California, Irvine, generally recognized as having one of the better MFA programs in the country. Cohen pulls no punches in his book. You can read the first six pages of chapter one at Amazon. com:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072562595/qid=1116098902/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-8895773-6231333?v=glance&s=books&n=507846%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072562595/qid=1116098902/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-8895773-6231333?v=glance&s=books&n=507846&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I sympathize with MegsMom60's desire for her daughter to make informed decisions. This book, if she'll read it, will help. I don't think it will dissuade her from wanting to major in theatre--my comment yesterday about the terrible twos still stands--but she may enter the process with a more realistic sense of what is required.</p>

<p>One more comment: MFA programs do not require BFA degrees, nor even necessarily degrees in theatre, for entrance. Acting experience, however, is essential. As I've written elsewhere, one valid choice for those who love acting is to attend a college or university with active extra-curricular theatre clubs--Thesbo, being the whiz that she is, can probably find my post from over a year ago where I listed links to several examples--and then do an MFA. Most famous example? Meryl Streep, BA English, Vassar, MFA Acting, Yale.</p>

<p>People think I’m a whiz, but I really just have an elephantine memory. Theatre/Drama</a> Colleges on September 11, 2004 at 9:21 p.m. ;)</p>

<p>I just wanted to mention two things. </p>

<p>One is following up on DoctorJohn's wonderful post. I had mentioned that someone might minor in theater in the BA level before doing an MFA. I meant to also say that the student could major in something other than theater but be heavily involved extracurricularly in theater at the college level before going onto an MFA. So, some involvement in acting/theater on the undergraduate level in some form might be good before pursuing an MFA. As mentioned on many threads, there are some liberal arts colleges and selective universities where there is a wealth of things going on in theater that nonmajors can partake in. I have seen this at places like Brown, Yale, Tufts, Vassar, Conn College, Cornell, and others. That is one route to take for some students who then might opt to go for an MFA degree later. For those who opt not to commit to a BFA program for whatever reason, doing a BA either in theater or doing another major but particpating in an active theater culture on campus and then going for an MFA is a very good option. Like Thesbo says, however, most MFAs are in Acting/Drama, not MT. </p>

<p>The other thing I was going to bring up is that I think if someone is debating whether to do a BFA, it might be a good indicator to NOT do a BFA. A BFA is a big commitment and is an immersion and intensive type of college training. You really have to be certain you want to do it before embarking on such a program. It is not for everyone. For my own child, we never even discussed BFA or BA because she was certain she wanted to pursue this field this way because she had been dedicated to it for her life to date and just knew inside this is what she wants to do. I think it is perfectly FINE to be unsure but if unsure, then commiting to such a specific kind of college degree at this age might not be best. My child was not questioning whether or not to do such a program. It was a very commited desire early on to do this. </p>

<p>I liken this kind of choice (BFA or BA) to a corollary with my other child who is just finishing up her freshman year at Brown. She is not going into theater by the way (though has done a bunch of it). Unlike her younger sister who has KNOWN what she has wanted to do for many years (and can safely say so, having done it for a while), my older child has many interests and was not yet sure what she wanted to major in at college when she was an applicant. This is very normal and fine. The majority of college freshmen tend to be "undecided". However, she was/is thinking of going into architecture. Unlike theater, that is a subject that is hard to say for CERTAIN she wants to study and have a career in because it is not like she has been doing it her whole life like her sister with theater. So, she began to explore this field by doing a yearlong independent study in her junior year. She followed that by an internship with an architect. She thinks she may want to go into this field but was not yet ready to make that commitment at age 17. The options in studying architecture are kinda like with theater. One option is to enter a five year BArch degree program which you commit to upon applying (like a BFA program) and you sometimes even have to submit a portfolio (like an audition for BFA) and the program is 3/4s of your curriculum (like a BFA) where it is all laid out for you and less choices. She was not ready to commit, nor wanted the majority of her curriculum to be in that one area as she also wanted liberal arts. The other option in her field is to do a BA in architecture like any other college major in a liberal arts setting and then go onto a MArch degree (kinda like 4+2 years rather than the 5 year BArch). She has opted for that option. She has been taking related courses her freshman year and has more lined up next year and a course at RISD as well. This summer, she is doing a six week intensive immersion program in architecture at Harvard Design School which is meant for someone like her who is deciding whether or not to pursue this field as a career, so she will know whether she wants to go onto a MArch degree or not. </p>

<p>Both these paths are valid ones and it is all about the individual. My child opting to do a BFA is certain she wants to do this. If she was not, then a BA option would have been a better choice. Also, a BA allows for even more liberal arts. I also am behind the option my older D picked because it allows her to explore many subjects and not yet commit to architecture, yet study architecture as a BA major if she decides to but no commitment before she entered college. </p>

<p>That is why, for someone like MegsMom60's daughter, who I think was contemplating entering a BA or BM program, that might be a good option for her if she is debating this because I think a BFA is for someone who is quite certain they would not want to do ANYTHING else (no matter the career prospects). Just another way to look at it. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>"That is why, for someone like MegsMom60's daughter, who I think was contemplating entering a BA or BM program"</p>

<p>My daughter is a junior and has never even considered a BM program. I'm getting the impression that you are comparing my posts to another poster perhaps? I share a computer with several people on my block who cannot afford personal computers. We went in together to buy this one and it is accessed by several mothers (some of whom do have senior children and a couple of which who have had kids do the audition thing this year). We decided it would be more fun to stay anonymous on the boards since the written word is sometimes misinterpreted and being in such close contact, felt it would be better if we didn't know who the poster is. Which is why my posts do not mention a child' name nor give any real personal descriptions.</p>

<p>Personally, I've wanted to buy a computer for quite a while but my husband feels it is unnecessary "when you can share one" and "there are plenty at the library". That doesn't mean we can't afford one. It just means my husband is perhaps a little antiquated in his thinking. But that's another story for another time. :) I'm still working on him to buy one for my daughter for her 2006 graduation. Wish me luck.</p>

<p>Again, thanks to everybody for their advice, and especially to doctorjohn. I will look into the book you mentioned. If it's as good as you say it is, I'm sure it will answer some of my concerns.</p>

<p>I'd like to reiterate my appreciation to all the parents who have taken the time to answer my posts. Thanks again.</p>

<p>To the Moderator--</p>

<p>Since this thread has essential met it's objective and my questions have, for the most part, been answered, I would like to respectfully request that it be closed.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>We do not close threads once someone's initial questions have been answered. As long as the discussion follows the terms of service, we continue to keep the discussion going. I don't see any reason to close this particular thread.
CollegeMom</p>

<p>Oh, o.k. I just thought since the forum has so many threads and most points have been taken on this one, I didn't think there was any need to continue this discussion. I guess I have a lot to learn about CC.</p>

<p>This thread has taken a lot of twists and turns since the original post and has become a little handbook about the path to becoming a “career actor.” Since this is on the MT forum and most of us are most specifically interested in musical theatre, I thought I’d bring up a point that has been brought up a long time ago. Although apparently there is at least one BA program in MT, most are BFAs, with a handful of BM s (OCU, B-W) thrown in. Whether the degree is called BFA or BM, it allows students to develop their skills in singing, acting, and dancing. Typically a BA would be a general degree in theatre, which includes a variety of theatre-related courses, including the study of dramatic literature. This degree could lead to a variety of jobs after graduation, but it does not rigorously train a student in acting. It also does not leave much time for the study of singing and dancing without adding on a couple of minors and/or double majoring. I think one of the reasons a lot of student pursuing BFAs in MT do so is for the ability to combine all three disciplines into one manageable schedule of classes, every year for four years. It’s a very rare campus that has the ability to provide a student with the chance to study all three disciplines separately. At one point, we did a lot of research about that and didn’t come up with too much. Even when they did allow it, we found other problems. For example, SMU allows students to major and minor in two or three of these areas, but they do not allow acting students to perform off campus–and they rarely have musicals! Then again, another reason is the conflict between departments that can make double or triple majoring/minoring difficult. We’ve gone through that in abundance, as have many, at the high school level! When one finds a school willing to work with a student in combining these areas of training and study, that’s fantastic! But this is a practical, VERY practical, reason for students pursuing the BFA in musical theatre. The student ends up with a four year college degree--in itself important IMO--and four years of polishing his or her singing, acting, and dancing. I definitely recognize that many MT actors have come to their roles with a wide variety of backgrounds, and although the trend has been toward more BFA MTs on Broadway and in national tours, this will most likely always happen because of the nature of the business. It's just that for a lot of students, a BFA (BM) in MT is an efficient way to move towards their goals.</p>

<p>mtmommy-you have made some great comments. I have known of more than one student who picked a MT program hoping to be able to take dance classes with the dance majors as they were strong dancers. They didn't find out until later that there were scheduling conflicts and the classes that they wanted to take were at the same time as required MT courses. I think this often holds true for those trying to double major with academic courses.</p>

<p>Mtmommy has made some great points and brought up important issues to research carefully. My D only applied to one program that offered a BM with an emphasis on MT instead of a BFA in MT and when we did a really careful curriculum review we discovered that the number of Music courses necessary to fulfill the the requirements of a Bachelor of Music degree lessened the number of hours available for Acting and Dance classes. This program was straightforward about this and told us that my D would be able to augment her University courses with private or group classes offered in the city around the University (for additional fees, of course), but that was not an ideal situation. There are only so many hours in the day and the potential lack of coordination in instructional plans and techniques raised all kinds of red flags for us. I don't know that this is true of other BM programs, but my advice would be to do a thorough curriculum evaluation of EVERY program that you are considering to be sure the distribution of classes covers your individual wants and needs.</p>

<p>MegsMom60:
Catching up on some of the discussion... There used to be another mother on this forum, MidgetMom, who you should get in touch with, as she had a lot of the same concerns that you have. She also seemed to know a lot about Florida schools. I haven't seen her post lately, but I would bet she still reads the forum and would be happy to share information.</p>

<p>Thank you for the suggestion.</p>

<p>MidgetMom--if you're out there, could you please e-mail me privately? Thanks.</p>

<p>Great. Let me know if you hear from her.</p>