<p>I'm getting college credit through Portland State for my IB Spanish class. 200 level. So I'd say they do view them as equal to college classes.</p>
<p>Earlier, Xiggi challenged my earlier post by saying:</p>
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May I ask if there a is a verifiable source to suport such as broad and far reaching statement as "IB Higher Level courses are harder than most college courses. IB students take more college-level courses simultaneously than college students do."
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</p>
<p>I have a child in college and a child in IB. My daughter's HL IB courses are more rigorous than what her brother did as a college freshman (at a flagship state university) or what I remember doing as a college freshman thirtysomething years ago (at a "lower Ivy"). Her SL courses are comparable in intensity to AP, which is supposed to be college level. (In fact, the way our school works it, in many cases the IB SL courses are AP courses, with extra assignments thrown in for the IB students so that they can meet the specific requirements of their program. Spanish, French, economics, and environmental science are all taught in this AP/IB way.)</p>
<p>IB students typically take six academic courses, all of them at this kind of level. College students rarely take six courses; four or five is more typical.</p>
<p>IB does have disadvantages. In addition to being limiting to students who are interested in foreign language, it can also be limiting to students whose principal interest is science. The extent of the paperwork, written assignments, nitpicking requirements, and general BS can be overwhelming. And the program can be inflexible. </p>
<p>What I don't object to is the undeniably elitist way in which IB has been implemented in our school system. I think we need programs and places where serious students can come together in a culture that accepts and respects them -- which, in my opinion, the general high school culture often does not. We have such things at the college level -- even at public schools (where they go by the name of honors programs). Why not in high school? Why should the kids who genuinely want to learn physics or Spanish or economics or whatever -- either because of a sincere interest in the subject matter or because they are seeking credentials that will help them to achieve personal goals -- have to put up with classes where nobody else does the reading, stays awake in the classroom, or even shuts up when the teacher is talking? Why shouldn't they have classes and programs that meet their needs, just as special education classes meet the needs of other groups of atypical kids?</p>
<p>Jay Mathews (education reporter at the Wash Post) wrote a book called "Supertest: How the International Baccalaureate Can Strengthen Our Schools" and I believe it focuses on the Mt. Vernon (VA) experience in bringing IB to the school. I've been waiting for it to come out in paperback since the library doesn't carry it! It's now in paperback on Amazon for under $15...</p>
<p>Does this logic also apply to the other end of the spectrum--the LD and ED (learning disabled and emotionally disturbed) classes that poplulate our public schools?</p>
<p>having two kids with learning differences- one who just graduated with a biology degree from Reed College, and one who is a junior at one of the top high schools in the country- I am going to put my $.02 and say that
Students with IEPs are served by a federal law IDEA entitling them to an appropriate education. Students with 504s are covered by the Civil rights anti discrimination act, and accomodations given should also be given in college/work force.
Its about equal access.
If someone who has disabilties needs accomodations for equal access, then they have a 504. It doesn't mean they aren't as capable but with someone for instance has a small motor delay, but is forced to handwrite at the same speed and legibility as someone without those challenges, then we may never know, what they could have contributed.
They are not necessarily at the low end of the spectrum</p>
<p>"Xiggi, Kids who haven't been exposed to excellent education aren't going to get one if we keep AP/IB out of the schools because it's "elitist."</p>
<p>And will "they" be exposed to excellent education by merely relying on unproven crutches and "next fad" programs? Do we need more Minnesota's Profile of Learning programs? </p>
<p>For what it is worth, I see no reason to address such as thing as "AP/IB" as it were one and the same. For all its faults and shortcomings, the AP program is the result of an early collaboration between our leading high schools and the College Board. The IB program is en entirely different type of animal. Elevating it to a "de facto" excellence is education requires quite a leap of faith. The fact that some of the most mediocre schools in the United States are able to start the IB program and pass the "rigorous quality" tests with the same faculty who was hopelessly failing its students a mere weeks before is a testament to the glaring chasm between wishful thinking and reality. </p>
<p>While the numbers of Stanton in Florida are worthy of kudos, what is happening here in El Paso, Texas is very, very different. Please do tell me how El Dorado High School, a school that barely pass the minimum qualification levels, will fare with their brand IB program? Did they magically import a new set of students and teachers? What will the criteria to earn a label of excellence be? A handful of IB scores of 4 in the next 5-7 years? Yep, that will do!</p>
<p>"It's now in paperback on Amazon for under $15"</p>
<p>What a deal. Let's all rush to pick the "brain" of the most misguided writer in education. At least, the price of his online column is right on the mark.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I never intended to defend badly run IB programs that do not give competent students who work hard a fair chance to pass the IB tests. If I gave that impression, I apologize.</p>
<p>I wouldn't defend badly run AP programs, either.</p>
<p>But IB, run well (as it is in my kids' school system), can indeed be an excellent program. So can lots of other things. I am not a huge IB enthusiast. If there were 20 different excellent programs available to my kids, each with a different emphasis, they and I probably wouldn't choose IB. But few kids have access to such a variety of educational programs. They have to choose from what's available. I would rather have IB available than not available.</p>
<p>"Xiggi, I never intended to defend badly run IB programs that do not give competent students who work hard a fair chance to pass the IB tests. If I gave that impression, I apologize."</p>
<p>Marian, and if I gave the impression that I do not see the value of a program such as the IB, I also have to apologize. As it is with almost every issue worthy of a sound debate on CC, it's easy to get sidetracked or lost in the complexity of the issues. As I wrote in the other thread, there is a lot of good parts in the IB program. My biggest problem is not that it is offered, but that it is adopted by schools for motives that--in my view-questionable. Maybe I should be more open-minded about the use of a strong "magnet" such as the IB to attract new blood and give them a reason to move to an otherwise undesirable district. Maybe I should shelve my criticism and see what might happen. </p>
<p>In the end, we all want our schools to improve academically and ...equally. I would love to see the resources--often scarce-allocated to all and see the best teachers focusing on programs that are open to all. My fear is that,what I call schools within schools, to see too large a focus on new "solutions" that are too partial to benefit everyone. Multiplying the number of IB exams by a factor of ten will not change a whole lot in our educational landscape. However, flattening the angles of our merit pyramid might. We do not have a crisis in our production of students capable of attending the Ivies; a bigger issue to garduate high school students who can read and write at a 12th grade level. </p>
<p>My apologies for being a bit too extreme in my judgment.</p>
<p>I attended IB training with many US teachers this summer. The program is expanding at a very rapid pace in the US. There are more IB schools in the US than anywhere else on the planet. Many programs are in the beginning phases. It takes a while for a program to be worked out within a school. I think Florida has many of the long standing IB schools and the universities there understand the program. But in talking with teachers, IB has been implemented in many schools to upgrade the education for all the students. </p>
<p>The IB has improved the education for all of our students at the international school where I work. We started in 1994. We only have the diploma program(grades 11-13) and have small classes. So all of our students are doing pre-IB from grade K onwards. In grade 11, students can op out of the curriculum that leads to the final diploma but a school has to improve their curriculum down the grades to even be able to offer an IB program where students are successful and earn the diploma.</p>
<p>There has been so much discussion over this on CC. But I do think with so many schools offering the IB program in the US this discussion will grow and continue.</p>
<p>I have nothing but the greatest respect for the organizers in Wales after attending workshops this summer.</p>
<p>My son certainly hasn't said that his HS experience was more difficult! I really can't speak to that but I would hope that the IB as it is conceived is a pre-university program. What do I know. :)</p>
<p>The adoption of PYP and MYP might very well open a new can of worms.
Minnesota, despite its Profile of Learning debacle, seems very willing to remain in the middle of the debate:</p>
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The IB Diploma Program (grades 11 & 12) consists of a common pre-university curriculum and a common set of external exams for students in schools throughout the world. The Diploma Program seeks to provide students with an international education that encourages an understanding and appreciation of other cultures and societies. The IB Diploma Program is authorized in over 1,500 schools in 122 countries throughout the world. </p>
<p>South St. Paul Public Schools has successfully administered the IB Diploma Program since 1986. In 2004, the School Board voted to adopt the IB Program district-wide (K-12). Once implemented, the addition of the Primary Years Program (PYP grades K-6) and the Middle Years Program (MYP grades 7-10) will make South St. Paul the first school district in Minnesota to have a comprehensive K-12 IB program. </p>
<p>The IB Primary Years Program (PYP) and the IB Middle Years Program (MYP) are for all students. The focus of the IB curriculum is cross-disciplinary and is based on the inquiry method of instructional practice. IB is not a gifted education program, but it does provide a model for high standards in education for all students. The PYP and MYP programs provide an educational framework based on what is currently known about how students learn and draw upon best practices for teaching and learning. Through the IB Program, all students are invited to discover for themselves that learning can be an exciting, challenging, and rewarding process of exploring the world around us. </p>
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</a></p>
<p>It will be interesting to see how this works out.</p>
<p>We don't have the PYP or MYP. It is too expensive for our tiny school of 280. But we have had to alter/adjust our elementary, middle school and early high school program so that students who want to graduate with the IB diploma are prepared for that curriculum.</p>
<p>Some of my best friends from high school attended United World College of the Atlantic (overseas, I guess that's where you went for IB training, right?), which was the first school in the world to offer the IB, and was also the first UWC in the world. </p>
<p>All of the kids who went were the creme de la creme. They were active in sports, music, theatre, art, politics - you name it, they did it. They were the superstars of my school.</p>
<p>Only problem was, once they went to Atlantic, they dropped all that stuff and spent 90% of their time studying, and the remaining 10% on the phone whinging about the bureaucracy of the IBO. Despite that, not one of them regretted taking the IB - they considered the academic programme far superior to the UK curriculum offered at my school. </p>
<p>I think that for kids who are truly dedicated to learning, are looking for a global perspective (and can handle the propaganda that comes with it...), and are willing to give up their free time to the programme, the IB hits the spot. But it's not for everyone, and I don't think anyone should be pushed into it, or take the decision lightly.</p>
<p>Laylah raises an important point. </p>
<p>IB is so time-consuming that it inhibits students' participation in extracurricular activities. </p>
<p>For a UK student, this may be a shame for personal reasons, but it is irrelevant in terms of university admissions. For a US student, the situation is quite different. College adcoms are looking for high-quality extracurriculars as well as high-quality academics.</p>
<p>I have a daughter who is a senior in IB. She does not regret her choice to do IB, and neither do I. But we both realize being in IB had a major impact on the amount of time and effort she could devote to outside activities, and this may have had a negative effect on her college admissions prospects.</p>
<p>I just don't understand why anyone in their right mind would want to see an adolescent experiencing the intense workload that the IB Diploma seems to entail. It is not a matter of providing appropriate challenge -- from the descriptions here and elsewhere it goes far beyond that. Just because a kid can run a fast mile doesn't mean that he needs to run a marathon. I'm all for filling up the day with challenging and interesting courses and providing the opportunity to work with other smart and intellectualy motivated kids.... but not for overdoing it. </p>
<p>Would we tolerate the same level of intensity in our workplaces that we expect of kids in these programs? I mean, if your employer announced that you were so good at what you do that he was going to triple your workload, and asked you to work double shifts every day of the week.... would you think that was a great idea? I have a feeling that most adults would pass on that opportunity unless they were desparately in need of extra money. </p>
<p>AP's can get out of hand too, but the difference is that the kid selects the courses they want and each is a closed end deal - so the kid can opt for a reasonable manageable workload.</p>
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I'm all for filling up the day with challenging and interesting courses and providing the opportunity to work with other smart and intellectualy motivated kids
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</p>
<p>What if the other smart and intellectually motivated kids are all in the IB program or some other special program? How will your kid get the chance to work with them if he is not in the program?</p>
<p>Well, that's why the program seems misguided in my mind. It can't really be calibrated to meet the needs of the individual. It just sounds too intense to be reasonable for high school age kids. There may be a tiny number of intensely driven, internally motivated type-A intellectual kids who would thrive on it.... but it seems the others are being pushed past the point at which they can take pleasure in their learning. Sounds to me like a recipe for burnout.</p>
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Well, that's why the program seems misguided in my mind. It can't really be calibrated to meet the needs of the individual.
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<p>That's a good point, calmom. The flexibility within IB is really very limited.</p>
<p>The IBO says that its program is flexible, but what they mean is that it's flexible enough for schools in different countries to adapt it a bit to their needs, so that their students fulfill both IB diploma requirements and national graduation requirements. Within a particular IB school, though, the individual IB students have fewer options available to them than regular-program kids taking AP courses do. In fact, this lack of flexibility was the factor that caused my son, who is now in college, to make the decision not to apply to IB.</p>
<p>My son is not in an IB school, but I have friends whose kids are. Now granted this is a very small sample (3 friends) but the workload and pressure was too much for all 3 kids. One attempted suicide, and the other two both ended up on anti-anxiety meds. The one who attempted suicide is now a sophomore in an ok Va college- and has almost a 4.0. One of the others took a year off and just started college. Both have said that college is much easier than the IB program. I just don't think that 14-18 year old kids should be under this kind of pressure. If my younger child doesn't go to TJ, he will go to an AP high school- not the IB pressure cooker. Yes, I am saying that IB appears to be more pressure than TJ. The TJ teachers seem to be much kinder and more interested in the student learning the material- vs what I heard from the IB schools of the teachers just teaching to the IB exam.</p>
<p>My daughter and her best friend from elementary, went to different schools in middle school-D went to a private prep that was rigourous, but had supports for kids with learning differences as well as kids who benefited from the private environment, but weren't academic stars.
Her friend went to a private prep- that had a great program, but was way more competitive, socially/academically/athletically, then I liked to see in 5-12.
Friend then entered the university of washington program @14, compressing high school into one year and beginning college the next.
It was free/pretty low cost and had advantage of being with your peers as well as taking college courses.
We thought about it, the price was certainly right, but ultimately decided that I wanted D to have more of a common high school experience, even if her school didn't have a football team or cheerleaders.</p>
<p>( I also like half day kindergarten)</p>
<p>I think tjmom raises a good point about teaching to the exam and nothing else. That's one of the problems I had when I considered the programme - I just didn't see how a teacher could fit all the material into the time period available, as well as encouraging students to do their own research outside of the classroom. There just didn't seem to be enough time to study, complete homework, do CAS activities and still have time to browse books and the internet just out of curiosity.</p>
<p>I know that the EE (Extended Essay) is meant to alleviate this issue - but there's no way that I would have been able to satisfy my natural curiosity by writing a 4000 word essay on one topic!</p>