<p>I recently asked the admissions office if a high SAT score could substitute the TOEFL requirement. They told me it couldn't; but I was wondering why. Some other colleges (Yale and Columbia of the top of my head) give you a specific CR score above which the toefl requirement is waived. I think nobody would disagree that to get a high CR score, you need to be proficient in English. I found that they used to have a similar policy but changed it. Does anybody here know (or suspect) why they changed it? The toefl is really expensive. Do you think that if I ask them again with my specific scores for the SAT the answer will be any different?</p>
<p>Oh btw, I'm an international (quite obvious imo but thought I would mention it anyway) and the language of instruction where I live is not English. We start with English lessons in 5th grade though.</p>
<p>Do you mean they cheat? Or that it’s not necessary to know English for the CR section? Because if they cheat on the SAT, why wouldn’t they cheat on the TOEFL. </p>
<p>I mean they cheat. And when they get to the US, they are unable to communicate effectively in English. I have no idea whether it is as easy to cheat on the TOEFL.</p>
<p>@cauldroncastle If you are denying the existence of widespread industrial cheating in China and South Korea, I suggest you do a little googling.</p>
<p>The phenomenon of some students arriving with far worse English skills than their scores would indicate is also well documented. I’m sure there are Chinese and South Korean students with excellent skills that do not cheat. Those are not the ones who caused repeated and recent mass cancellations of scores.</p>
<p>Stupid how one small group of students can ruin it for everybody else. I just wonder how they can be so dumb to think that they’ll succeed at an American college without any knowledge of the English language</p>
<p>Sorry, missed the editing deadline. This is what I meant to post:</p>
<p>@cauldroncastle, yes, I know. Perhaps I should have been more specific in the first place. But the cheating seems to involve not only China and South Korea, the biggest offenders, but Thailand and Japan, and perhaps others. Here’s some examples of recent coverage:</p>
<p>There is ample information out there about how cram schools prep students to write essays that pass muster: basically, they memorize every word of a basic essay, and make small tweaks in specific places to appear to be answering the prompt, more or less. It is quite remarkable. Brute memorization required.</p>
<p>I would add that my S has several friends who are Japanese and Chinese who have or are studying in the US on the undergraduate or graduate level, and they all have excellent English and math skills and would not need to resort to cheating on the SAT or GRE or TOEFL to be admitted. (These are students who were admitted to and graduated from top Chinese and Japanese universities as undergraduates. I have the impression that the cheaters are more likely to be those who can’t gain admission at home.)</p>
<p>Anyway, I have no idea whether this has anything to do with D’s TOEFL policy, of course.</p>
<p>Yes there is evidence of wide spread cheating. And the cheaters do end up getting degrees-often by cheating, begging, making professors bring standards down, etc. And there have been huge investments in remedial classes pitched to the international students. The schools are loath to send the students packing once certain state schools accept the tuition (which is the entire and only goal driving the increased acceptance rates of foreign students. Huge groups of students speaking their own language and hanging together , avoiding discussions in classes and sitting in class absolutely unwilling to participate or discuss does nothing to enhance the university climate-quite the opposite-it has had a hugely detrimental impact on many US campuses. )</p>
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