<p>S and I were discussing Brandeis. It has a program in which he is interested and for which he is applying to other schools with similar programs. So I was surprised that Brandeis was not on his list. In asking him about it, he revealed that he was afraid he would see the same kids he thought were creepy when he was in pre-bar mitzvah Hebrew school. That cracked me up but I can see his point. Is Brandeis filled with the same kids you went to Hebrew school with, only all grown up? Or, to put it another way, does it feel like Hebrew school, only with all the same kids only all grown up?</p>
<p>not at all. brandeis is only about 50 percent jewish, and we're really pretty diverse! (I have friends from Egypt, France, Spain, England, all parts of the US, India, Belgium and Greece.) Among the jewish students, many, if not most, are more "culturally jewish," and not religious zealots by any means. Brandeis certainly doesn't feel like Hebrew School because its jewish piece is not all that it is. To me, Hebrew School's purpose was to educate me in judaism. Brandeis' purpose so far has been to educate me about science and legal theory, and to be a place to form friendships and learn how to be on my own for the first time just like any other college in the country. It is a very different atmosphere. I certainly can't speak for what your son will find at brandeis; a visit would help clear up if there are too many jews for him. My gut instinct is that if there's a program here that's exciting to him, it should at least be on his list. </p>
<p>good luck with the college search!</p>
<p>MD, thanks for the feedback. I've had good feelings about Brandeis. I know my family supported the school decades ago and so it has been on my personal radar screen (not for influence purposes, just for interest!). I have heard it is one of those schools where students are seeking learning and knowledge rather than credentials. </p>
<p>Besides, I have a fond memory about Brandeis. When S was a very little kid he loved playing and watching baseball. We went to watch a college baseball tournament at the local AA baseball stadium. Brandeis was among the the teams playing. We were sitting down the third baseline beyond the Brandeis dugout. A batter hit a foul ball near us. S tracked it down and and was thrilled to have a souvenir from a "real" baseball game. But because it was a college game, the policy is that fans have to return the balls to the team. An usher came to S and politely retrieved the ball from him. S was pretty disappointed. Apparently one of the Brandeis players saw this. When the half-inning ended, he came over and made a show of pretending to have slyly retrieved "THAT baseball" and snuck it back to my son. It was a very sweet gesture that made my son very happy and warmed my heart. He still has the ball along with one or two others he keeps from childhood.</p>
<p>i have been trying hard since i first read your post to decide how to respond -- quite honestly, your post and your son's apparent attitude left me somewhat speechless. he seems to be carrying some stereotype as to what "Hebrew school" types are -- which, quite honestly, i find a little troubling.</p>
<p>both of my children attended Hebrew school. one now attends Brandeis. their Hebrew school classes were filled with quite a variety of students -- some they were friends with, others not. my child and one classmate are the only ones from either class now at Brandeis. all those other kids are at numerous different schools. i see no real difference between them and my child and the classmate who chose Brandeis. and my child and this classmate are both very different and chose Brandeis for very different reasons. </p>
<p>i can not imagine why your son would assume that types of kids he considered "creepy" would be the ones to choose Brandeis. perhaps you really need to examine with him what he found creepy. </p>
<p>if he found those who were more observant "creepy" -- then yes, Brandeis may not be for him. while observant Jews are by no means a majority on campus, they are certainly very noticeable. it is easy to be observant at Brandeis so it does attract a fairly sizeable observant population. will they care that your s isn't observant? not in the least -- especially since non-observant Jews and non-Jews combined are clearly in the majority there. but you and you son have to examine how and why he might feel how he does.</p>
<p>if he considered the "creepy" Hebrew school kids to be the "nerds" -- then again, Brandeis may not be the place for him. it is full of Jewish and non-Jewish nerds -- in fact I think its an appeal for many of them. its not a party school -- its a college so there are plenty of kids who do typical college things, so there are parties and drinking and drugs -- but that is definitely not the predominant nature of the place. many kids seeking a "lively" social life complain about this aspect of Brandeis. so again, if that's how your son describes "creepy," yes, he should look elsewhere.</p>
<p>were the "creepy" kids the kids in Hebrew school who were only there because their parents made them go and they really didn't care about what was trying to be taught to them? if that's how he describes "creepy," well, yes he's going to find a good share of them at Brandeis too -- because Brandeis' Jewish population covers the full spectrum -- from observant Orthodox to "Jewish" is a historical family label with little personal relevance -- with EVERYTHING in between.</p>
<p>or were the "creepy" kids the ones who actually enjoyed Hebrew school? he'll find plenty of those at Brandeis also.</p>
<p>thing is, however, he defined "creepy" - he'll find them at Brandeis. Because the student body at Brandeis is fairly diverse even within its "Jewishness." Roughly half the student body is not Jewish. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't find some non-Jews who met his definition of "creepy" as well.</p>
<p>however your son defines "creepy" -- i would strongly urge him to reevaluate the stereotypes he seems to carry from his Hebrew school days. and as with ANY college decision -- he should visit ANY school he is considering to decide on whether he "fits." Personally - i think sitting in a school's dining hall for a meal will probably tell you more in this regard than any thing a tour guide can tell you. And if you do visit Brandeis - consider whether to make that meal at Sherman - the dining hall that includes the kosher line (but kosher and non-kosher students dine together, just the food lines are separate).</p>
<p>just also want to mention -- kids go thru an awful lof of change from age 12 to age 18. i know a lot of kids from my kids' classes that neither my kids nor i thought much of in 7th grade who "menched" out conisderably by the time they went off to college. your son really should move past what was his perception as a 12 year old in making his college decisions.</p>
<p>Brandeismom, your pointed observations are really helpful. It is interesting to step back and figure out what S meant by his stereotypes. I've given it some thought. First, his use of the term "creepy" was a really lazy choice and intended to be playful, but in retrospect it is a very loaded word. So thanks for taking the time to focus me on that, and here's my more thoughtful response. </p>
<p>S's grandfather (my father), who passed away 3 years ago and with whom S was very close, was a strong Zionist. S had developed a strong interest in the Middle East. S loves to argue, and he found that his grandfather was not interested in hearing S's point of view. For his GF, Israel could do no wrong. Through opportunities I won't go into in this post, S developed a "balanced" view of the Mid-East, Arab-Israeli struggles. S has friends who are Moroccan, Egyptian, Jordanian and Palestinian as well as Israeli. He does not see the conflict in black-white terms. Lots of gray. It created a strain in his relationship with his GF, or at least diminished his GF in his eyes because he couldn't understand how such an intelligent and learned man could be so immutable on something so complex. </p>
<p>I think this has made him leery of ardent and strident Zionists. S had the chance to attend school in Israel for a year. He resisted and elected not to. He feels he would not fit in well because he projects that trips and study in Israel are prosthletizing and Zionistic. I believe that these characteristics raise uncomfortable memories for him with his grandfather. It is not that he has turned his back on his faith - far from it - but rather that he sees "true" Jews as being hard-headed Zionists like his grandfather.</p>
<p>So I believe that his stereotype about Brandeis is that he projects he would be surrounded for four years by people who think Israel is perfect and can do no wrong and that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian" because there has never been a nation called Palestine. He believes he would be uncomfortable at Brandeis because of this, or ostracized as an Arab sympathizer or something. </p>
<p>This is a much more accurate description of what S perceives about Brandeis. He thinks that there would be a strong "bias" towards Israel and against Arabic and Arabs, where his views and inclination are that there is plenty of blame to go around and that both sides need to get over themselves, acknowledge the fact that the other exists and has a right to do so, and start looking forward and not backward. </p>
<p>I have told him that his thoughts about Israelis and about Jews being single-minded and monolithic in thought are not based in reality. He follows Mid-East politics, reads the Israeli press among others on-line, and I have pointed out that diversity of thought in Israel is almost a national sport. I suspect that Brandeis is the same - that there are ardent Zionist students, students who think Israel can do and does nothing right, and lots in between. But I don't have any experience there so I can't really say. That was the point of my initial, not particularly articulate post. </p>
<p>With this explanation, any insight I can share with him?</p>
<p>ok, a few things. </p>
<p>israeli-palestinian issues can be a real hot button at many college campuses. and young adults often feel very strongly about whatever their position is. "supporting" israel can cover a wide range -- from those who think israel can do no wrong, to those who wish to ensure israel's safety, but who also do not always agree with israeli policies -- just as one can be a loyal american and still criticize the us gov't, so too can one be a loyal israel supporter and still not agree with everything a current government does. but because it is such a hot button issue, it becomes easy for people to end up arguing more "black and white" than they might otherwise.</p>
<p>at many, if not most, college campuses in the u.s., a student who strongly supports israel is likely to find him or herself in a minority. and at some campuses that can be a very uncomfortable minority.</p>
<p>at brandeis, as one may expect given the large Jewish population, you also have a large population of students who support israel -- some more adamantly than others. many students at brandeis, Orthodox and non-Orthodox, will have arrived at brandeis after having spent a year in Israel. not a majority even of the Jews, but certainly many more than you would typically find at a college campus. support for israel is strong on campus - no doubt about that.</p>
<p>would your son be likely to find people whose position on israel he has problems with -- undoubtedly, quite a few. and if he allowed himself to let this define his brandeis experience, yes he could be quite unhappy there.</p>
<p>but he would also undoubtedly find students, both Jews and non-Jews, who (1) agree with him and (2) may disagree but are open to rational discussion. (by the way -- is your son? is he able to accept that others may have differing yet valid opinions on the topic? is his problem with others he feels are dogmatic without even being willing to listen to varying opinions, or is he himself dogmatic on the issue? this could make a huge difference in whether or not he could in fact be comfortable there).</p>
<p>as is very typical of brandeis in general, pluralism is the norm. i just went to the clubs page at brandeis and found the following groups all of which have the middle east as a common topic -- but as you can see they have hugely varying approaches --
Arab-Jewish</a> Dialogue Group
Brandeis</a> Israel Public Affairs Committee
Brandeis</a> Students for Justice in Palestine
[Middle</a> East Forum At Brandeis (MEFAB)<a href="i%20do%20not%20know%20personally%20how%20active%20any%20of%20these%20clubs%20are">/url</a></p>
<p>brandeis is also home of the Crown Center for Middle East Studies [url=<a href="http://www.brandeis.edu/crown/%5DCrown">http://www.brandeis.edu/crown/]Crown</a> Center for Middle East Studies | Brandeis University](<a href="http://my.brandeis.edu/clubs/mefab%5DMiddle">http://my.brandeis.edu/clubs/mefab)
be sure to look at the faculty listing to see how diverse a group that is
The</a> Crown Center - Who We Are | Brandeis University</p>
<p>bottom line, i think-
if your son is genuinely interested in engaging in debate that is open to varying opinions, he may find a level of debate unequal to that at most other colleges - with people holding many differing views. but he will definitely also run into people who are very strident in their support of israel and who he will probably not think much of -- that's his right -- only he can say if that is enough to make him not want to be there.</p>
<p>but quite honestly, if your son is so dogmatic on the issue that he is not open to debate on opinions that differ from his own - he may very well not feel comfortable at brandeis. </p>
<p>i don't know if that helps you or not. if your son is otherwise interested, i again strongly urge a campus visit and a meal in sherman dining hall. even just reading the posters around campus can help give a prospective student a feel for the place. he can try contacting people at the clubs listed above that may more closely match his own views to see what they can tell him.</p>
<p>i would also urge -- you seem to have an affinity for brandeis. don't let your feelings for the school lead you to push your son there if it is not in fact a good fit for him.</p>
<p>good luck.</p>
<p>just thought i'd add this -- from the current issue of the school's newspaper --
Professors</a> enlighten students on the Middle East - News</p>
<p>It certainly does feel as if your son is dogmatic about the Israeli/Palestinian issue. I won't get into how that seemingly strained your son's relationship with his grandfather, but I will urge caution to you on how it is affecting his college choice. First of all, fleeing from a school based on prejudged assumed-sterotype (support for Israel) is downright ridiculous. If anything, Brandeis encourages healthy debates, and of course this issue can come up as frequently as American politics. Now, if your son is that passionate about his position, he should have no trouble defending it on campus. That could only enrich his college experience. By what has been described, your son shouldn't worry about Brandeis' "creepy" Jews, but rather they should be afraid of him! Brandeis is known for supporting individuals, who may come together to form their own sub-communities on campus (religious faiths, political affiliations, etc.) but who also always make up the fabric of the tight-knit Brandeis campus. People come to Brandeis with both steadfast individualism as well as an open mind: They want to be who they are, and they want others to do the same.</p>
<p>Great points all. I appreciate the no-holds-barred feedback very much. The reason Brandeis keeps coming up in our house is because I had identified it early on as a school at which I think he would be happy. My experience is that jews generally and Israelis specifically love to argue, take differing positions and defend then. My S loves doing that. His best friend in HS is a fundamentalist Christian who is very observant, lives his faith, and politically is a polar opposite to my son on almost every issue. The two of them go at it pretty heavily and always with good humor and respect. And S's aunt - my sister - made Aliyah 10 years ago, married a sabra, and loves it there. </p>
<p>Your points about pushing towards Brandeis are well taken. S has a very healthy and realistic list of schools to which he is applying, combining reach, realistic and safety schools. I encouraged him to include Brandeis and at last check he has. Come to think of it he was probably goading me into arguing with him on Brandeis with his comment about Hebrew school, and I took the bait.</p>
<p>Thanks again all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Come to think of it he was probably goading me into arguing with him on Brandeis with his comment about Hebrew school, and I took the bait.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>don't you just love how our kids know just which buttons to push? ;)</p>
<p>good luck to your son -- hopefully he'll have wonderful choices to make come april!</p>
<p>I keep coming back to this thread in part b/c Brandeis is on DD's list, but mostly because this has been such a refreshing, intelligent, and articulate discussion, so unlike the current political threads on CC. Thank you all, especially laxtaxi and brandeismom!</p>
<p>Okay, BC is more Catholic than Deis is Jewish.
Going to Yeshiva would be Hebrew school.</p>
<p>I don't know if you thought the content would be like Hebrew School. But, just to be clear, there is absolutely no requirement in Jewish studies so you can go through Brandeis and not take one class in the History of Israel, Hebrew Language, Talmud, or anything in between. (Other schools like BC have a theological requirement; Brandeis never had one and won't adopt one in the future.)</p>
<p>In terms of the student body, to reiterate what has been said from the perspective of a senior who loves Brandeis, you may find some of those "Hebrew School types." You deserve to have an honest appraisal of the school, so I'll be forthright, your child will feel the Jewish culture at Brandeis. It is very possible that before Shabbat your son will see some students showering in time for services and Shabbat dinner. If your son goes to brunch on Saturday, he may see many Jews in Sherman dressed in their Shabbat best enjoying the experience of going to school with such a vibrant Jewish community. </p>
<p>If your son never wants to go to Shabbat Services nor even go to Hillel-sponsored social events, then he will be in good company. I would say at least 80% of the students decide not to participate in the organized Jewish community in any way, and that number obviously includes many Jews who probably went through Hebrew school with the son. If your son preferred to hang out with the snarky kids in Hebrew School who laughed at the teacher and the spiritual kids who seemed to love the subject matter, then your son will almost certainly find those students at Brandeis.</p>
<p>I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but I think that the story you told about the Brandeis baseball player who gave the baseball back to your son is an excellent reflection on something that sets Brandeis apart--its incredible down-to-earth, intelligent, and unpretentious student body. </p>
<p>I apologize for adding another lengthy post but I'm very passionate about Brandeis and wanted to give you an honest assessment of the school as I see it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Going to Yeshiva would be Hebrew school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>no, actually going to Yeshiva University would be more analogous to going to yeshiva -- which is quite different than a supplemental Hebrew school -- both in terms of what is taught and the nature of the student body.</p>
<p>no, brandeismom, actually going to Yeshiva would have the experience of a Hebrew school because everyone there is JEWISH. at brandeis, however, not everyone is jewish..hence it is not a Hebrew school.</p>
<p>GreatG - you are making the error of equating any Jewish population with any other Jewish population.</p>
<p>Yeshiva University is an Orthodox school that generally attracts Orthodox Jewish students who attended Orthodox Jewish day schools (ie yeshivas). The term "Hebrew School" generally refers to a supplemental, part time, school attended by any range of denomination (in some cases no denomination) of Jewish students, designed to supplement their secular school education with a few hours of Jewish education a week. (I am making the assumption that the OP was using the term in this manner.)</p>
<p>The level of observance and nature of the student body is EXTREMELY different, as is the scope of Jewish education offered. The type of student found in one would, in general, be enormously different than that found at the other.</p>
<p>I never said Brandeis was the same as a Hebrew School. I agree it is not. Not only is it not 100% Jewish in its student body, but it does not purport to have as its mission Jewish education. </p>
<p>However in trying to make your distinction and using Yeshiva University as an example, I think you simply made the mistake of equating one type of Jewish environment (Hebrew School) with another type of Jewish environment (a yeshiva) -- they are very different environments. 100% Jewish or not -- to equate something 100% Jewish with something very different that is also 100% Jewish doesn't really help dispel people's misconceptions.</p>
<p>The OP's son most assuredly would not find many of the "same kids [he] went to Hebrew school with" at Yeshiva University. (Unless of course I am mistaken and OP's son attended an Orthodox day school). He may however find some of those kids at Brandeis, just like he may find just about any other type of Jewish student at Brandeis. But once again -- I am NOT saying that Brandeis is in any way like Hebrew School -- merely that given the breadth of its Jewish population it will undoubtedly have some who are like the students the OP's son wishes to avoid.</p>
<p>I've spent a lot of time studying Middle East programs at a wide variety of universities and I believe that Brandeis probably has the most balanced and high quality program in the country. For example, this past Spring, Shai Feldman, the head of the Crown Center at Brandeis (and the former head of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University) team taught a class on the Israeli-Arab conflict with a famous Palestinian academic (the best known pollster on the West Bank) and a famous Egyptian academic. You won't find that kind of diverse approach anywhere else. </p>
<p>Regrettably, most Universities approach the issue with an anti-Israel bias because many Middle East programs are funded by the Saudis and are staffed by far left wing ideologues. Beware Columbia and Georgetown, for example. Brandeis faculty, on the other hand, are surprisingly balanced.</p>
<p>Great post. I wish I could get my son to read it. I've pushed Brandeis hard already.</p>
<p>A little advice. I wouldn't "push" any school that you would like him to attend. Teenagers usually react negatively to parental pressure. Without pushing Brandeis, I suggest asking him to go on the website of the Crown Center for Middle East Studies--have him look at the faculty and programs, and then ask him to research the offerings at other schools he is interested in and compare them. And tell him not to limit himself to official websites--there is a lot information available on the internet. For example, with a little digging, he'll discover that many Jewish students at Columbia refuse to take Middle East Studies courses at Columbia because of the perception that many of the faculty are not only anti-Israel, but anti-Semitic. As a protest, many Columbia students have cross-registered for Middle East studies courses at NYU. This has been a real embarrasment to Columbia--whose undergraduate Jewish population is not that much smaller than Brandeis'.</p>
<p>If he is as smart as you think he is, he'll come to the correct conclusion himself.</p>