<p>StickerShock, each person should have their personal set of college selection criteria. Like your child, my child cared about the academic side of her education and that it be sufficiently challenging (my kids crave challenge and are not happy if work is too easy). With BFA in MT programs, many are NOT located in academically very selective universities. This is something you have to deal with. </p>
<p>If she really cares about the academic selectivity and level of the college, she may want to have more schools of that sort such as NYU, UMich, UMiami, Elon, USC, UCLA, Emerson, for example. I know a LOT of kids like your D who care about this aspect and are top academic students. Many of these kids ONLY applied to BFA programs in academically selective universities but also applied to BA programs where they could do a lot of theater and MT such as Yale, Brown, Northwestern, Conn College, Skidmore, etc. So, one option for a kid like yours who may really want the strong academic setting is to apply to BFA programs that have that and then apply to some BA programs where they can do lots of theater/MT and also have the strong academic program. </p>
<p>The other option is that if your D really really wants a BFA, then she might have to come to accept that many BFA programs are not located in the most selective colleges but she'd love their BFA programs and make the most of the academics offered. </p>
<p>As with anyone's college selection process, sometimes you have to give in one area to get what you want in the other and there are not that many schools that align with all of your college selection criteria perfectly. This is also important to realize when building a MT college list because it is so competitive to get in that you have to be open to schools of various types to even have a chance of having some acceptances.</p>
<p>NOTE...my post is in response to your earlier posts today and not your latest one which I have not even read yet as I was interrupted by phone calls when writing this.</p>
<p>However, another thing to consider (to muddy the waters further) is that some kids who have high scores on SAT/ACT and have top grades nonetheless honestly are not that interested in/motivated to take academic courses, which is why they have a "BFA or Bust" mentality. They really don't want to spend a lot of time sitting in classrooms or lecture halls, though they could and would do well in that setting. A student like that would be better served, imo, in a BFA program that is mostly hands on rather than in a classroom setting he or she might not like. It all depends on the kid.</p>
<p>Just a quick follow up: I don't agree that less academically selective schools have less motivated students. They have students who have been either less successful in high school academics, or students for whom this particular school offered something special. Some students are motivated, others aren't, but they are probably at the school that suits their level of academic or artistic skill.</p>
<p>Julliard, for example, has accepted a good friend, whose academics would barely be acceptable at MMC, and whose talent is prodigiouos. He is very, very far from unmotivated.</p>
<p>But far more important, and I am afraid the point is being missed: if your D is an academic, then she should apply to the academically challenging schools. If she is talented, she should apply to the talent-based programs. If she is both, she will get in at the top schools that meld the two. If she is one or the other, she should choose applications accordingly to suit her strengths. But there's really no sense in being "shocked" that a certain school's academic admissions aren't as high as another's. Some schools' talent requirements aren't so challenging. Some are one, some are the other, some are both, some aren't, and it's all about the fit.</p>
<p>NMR, that is a great point. I have some students, who are very capable, who do NOT want much in the way of academics at all in college. And in their cases, they really need to make sure they explore schools well enough to know which schools meet that criteria. For instance, I have a student now who is not real interested in the academic side but has high SATs. She wants NYU but really NYU would not be the best fit if she didn't really like or want much to do with academics. Picking the right college list for each student and matching up with their personal criteria is so important. But by the same token, when the odds of getting into BFAs are SO difficult, one must keep an open mind and apply to some schools that may not match up in every which way with all of their selection criteria as it will be a very limited list that may not yield results. For instance, if a students wants an urban setting, that's great but in creating the list, they should be open to other schools for the time being and then see where they get in and if they end up with options, THEN choice the one in the urban setting. I find some kids are knocking out great options well suited to them because they are limiting the criteria so much when creating the MT list of schools. Creating a list is not the same as committing to attend but is just creating a list of viable options. And in some cases, students haven't even visited yet to even truly KNOW if they do or do not really like it.</p>
<p>True, Fit is so very important! It's great that there are so many types of colleges- I am so thankful that great MT programs aren't all located in universities that are highly selecitive academically- my D with her not great test scores but wonderful talent would be stuck!
I also think our kids will be with very motivated peers just by virtue of studying theater. Their peers might not all be motivated to master calculus, but most actors are very interested in human nature and the world around them. Same for kids in the visual arts, dance, etc</p>
<p>Checkbook, I am shocked to see that the top academic scholarship ($6K) at Marymount goes to anyone with an 1150SAT/3.0GPA.</p>
<p>I never said I was shocked to see that different schools have different acceptance standards.</p>
<p>Soosie, I agree that limiting criteria too much can result in good schools being knocked out prematurely. I am trying to convince D that trees and cornfields are not reasons to eliminate schools from consideration.</p>
<p>I might be "shocked" to find out how many students really do that kind of turnaround. It takes a lot of sacrifice for most kids to keep up a high GPA, take or retake ACT/SAT tests, AP classes and tests and ECs. Having to say no to friends that are skating through high school having fun constantly going to games, parties, movies while they are passing to study for some test or final. Sure, some might have parents breathing down their necks but I think most of them - that is just who they are and they are self driven and like challenge.</p>
<p>The most common thing I hear when a high achieving student from high school goes to a college less challenging than they could have attended is "it's boring...it's just like high school". I just hate it when I see that happen.</p>
<p>Not to beat the dead horsie, but still: then let's not be shocked at different scholarship standards, either! If a school wishes to attract students with higher scores/grades than it had in the past, it does it by rewarding that student. If a 3.0 and 1150s are higher than its prior applicant pool average, then it's a fine way to attract those students. </p>
<p>That those standards seem low to you is simply a matter of perspective. You don't have to have a 3.0 and 1150s to get into MMC. But to get into their BFA or BA with MT minor programs, you have to have lots of talent. If you can pull off a 3.0 and 1150+ sats, and be talented enough to get into the selective MMC programs, why not get a scholarship too? </p>
<p>I am launching my youngest child, and have really "seen it all." The big take-away for me has been to suit the school to the student. However that works out, whether it's Santa Monica College for 2 years (great community college with theater program,$20 a credit, all you need is a GED!), American Academy of Dramatic Arts (again, only GED required), Julliard (no math, ever!), NYU, or MMC. Visit, take in the vibe, talk to students, sit in on classes, spend the night. It's a huge, expensive undertaking, not be judged by anyone's standards but your own.</p>
<p>My D is graduating from an elite private school with crazy hard academics and a crappy arts program. She is going to a wonderful BFA MT program with the bare minimum of gen ed classes, and I couldn't be happier. It is about time she was able to focus on the stuff she loves and is best at. If she feels starved for education, there are libraries full of books for her to read.</p>
<p>"The most common thing I hear when a high achieving student from high school goes to a college less challenging than they could have attended is "it's boring...it's just like high school". I just hate it when I see that happen."</p>
<p>(Sorry, I can't make the quote go in the little box.)</p>
<p>Again, it's because the student chose the school (or the parent did) based on some criterion that was unsuitable. The same complaint, in reverse, happens when a kid gets into a super-stretch, and can't do the work. Then, its a transfer down, a self-perceived failure, when what really failed was the research of the school and the self-knowledge. </p>
<p>I am not saying the student in the original question should consider schools below her academic level. (See earlier post.) I am saying that she should find the schools that meld her level of talent and her level of academics. In an environment that she, personally, will thrive in. They are out there. I promise!</p>
<p>Reply to StickerShock, post 67: I had the same conversation with my D about grits. I lost.</p>
<p>And we all need to keep in mind, too, that no college degree or program is a guarantee of success in anything and that includes Yale and the Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>StickerShock, with respect to your post #52, one of the things I am suggesting is that issues of academic "reputation" or ranking are in practical terms immaterial when it comes to BFA programs because of the singular focus of most such programs and the distinct paucity of opportunity to meaningfully avail oneself of traditional academic courses within the structure of a BFA program. So for example, in choosing whether to attend a school like BOCO or CMU, I really doubt the the difference in academics between the 2 schools has much relevance, if any, to BFA MT students with regard to either employment as a performer or even with regard to employment opportunities outside of performing. That is why for many, choosing to go the BA route makes much more sense.</p>
<p>As to your comments about SAT scores, NotMamaRose's comments are on point. Rigor of high school curriculum and GPA are much better indicators of of a student's overall academic abilities; SAT's are just a tool to facilitate quantifying a student without the need to analyze in depth a student's high school history and experience. Soozievt's comments are also relevant.</p>
<p>Looking at a school's average SAT's can also be misleading or present an incomplete picture of the student demographics. I spent my freshman year at Penn State's Main Campus and then transfered to Tufts. Two totally different types of schools and very different ranges of SAT scores. In retrospect, in my experience the high performing academic students at Penn State were every bit as academically qualified and talented as the high performing students at Tufts. The biggest difference was that at Tufts, the academic profile of the student body was narrower and more concentrated than at Penn State.</p>
<p>In this regard, since you mentioned UArts average SAT scores, I'll offer an additional observation. My daughter was a high academic achiever in H.S. - loaded up with Ap and Honors classes all 4 years, unweighted 4.0 GPA her Jr and Sr years, very respectable SAT scores. In her BFA MT freshman class of 24, she's not the only one with such statistics, there are several others. We also know of several sophomores with similar stats. These students chose UArts over other schools to which they were accepted that had better "academic reputations" because UArts offered a better match to what they were looking for in BFA MT training. I suspect that what is occurring and will continue to occur in the future is that the "academic credibility" of students in BFA MT programs will continue to rise at schools that historically have been viewed as "conservatories" or "arts schools" as the competition for admission continues to increase and students focus more on the quality of the MT training in the BFA programs and less on the school's reputation in areas that will be of marginal practical relevance in the student's 4 year structured BFA curriculum.</p>
<p>That doesn't mean that academics shouldn't be a factor that is given weight. If academics are viewed as being as important as performance training, however, I just think a student should be looking at a load of BA programs more than at BFA's.</p>
<p>My D attends UArts, and had tremendous grades (along with AP's/SAT's) in a private (non-theatre) high school. She received many academic scholarships (as well as talent) from other schools. She did not have to choose this school as there were school's with higher SAT requirements to which she was accepted. Initially, she was concerned about academics. I can tell you that the concerns are a distant memory. She is so busy & challenged, (and from what we've learned through friends and others, most of these programs are almost identical).</p>
<p>Although my husband graduated from Yale, he was NOT happy there.<br>
He was happier at his Grad schools.<br>
What's more important, IS up to the individual. (Please note, there were kids on this board this year who have decided on BOCO vs. UMich, and UNCSA over CCM etc. etc. - just some examples of "fit" decisions.)</p>
<p>P.S. Just noticed that we cross posted MichaelNKat.</p>
<p>Skwidjymom - My daughter feels much the same. She busted her rear end with the most demanding academics possible in high school and is now doing exactly what she loves the most. The funny thing is, she tells us that her freshman year in her BFA MT program is more demanding, challenging and time consuming than h.s school ever was - notwithstanding that she attends an "arts" university ;) .</p>
<p>I feel that what consitutes the perfect fit, is incredibly personal, and there really is no one or correct answer.</p>
<p>Our D had the option of attending a public HS in our area that is extremely well known for its outstanding performing arts program. But instead, she chose to attend a rigorous college prep school. Is my D all about academics then? No, not at all, but she just wanted to have the best possible foundation to get ready for college. She turned out to be a relatively average student in the midst of very strong academic minds, who simply maintained good grades in order to be allowed to do what she loves to do, musical theatre. </p>
<p>When it came time to put together her final list of schools, where she would apply for college, she compiled the most eclectic list you will ever see. There seemed to be no logic whatsoever, conservatory, liberal arts, large, small, big reputation, relatively unknown etc. What they all had in common however, is that she could see herself attend any of the schools and be happy. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, I think it is important to not forget that this process is really not all about academics (SAT's & GPA), or talent (audition), but one also needs that little bit of luck and be "the type the schools are looking for", because programs can only admit so many people.</p>
<p>We figured that once we would have a clear view of where she had been accepted, she would do her "pro and con list" and take things from there, but with her "so so stats" we did not really feel that only choosing to apply for BFA's at schools known for a high academic environment would have been particularly smart in her case. </p>
<p>It goes back to what SoozieVT has said in so many posts, make sure that your list is broad.</p>
<p>checkbookmom...(or anyone else reading)....students don't have to take math at NYU. :D</p>
<p>I agree with Michael and think I mentioned this earlier as well, but a BFA path is not the most appropriate path for everyone and I don't mean due to talent! In fact, I have had SEVERAL clients who have the talent to get into a BFA but really wanted the academics and changed their minds after initially wanting a BFA and changed their entire college lists to all BA programs. These were very good students. They are still majoring in theater and doing MT. This is a VERY viable path in this field and one that many are CHOOSING and not because they cannot get into a BFA (these kids are of BFA caliber).</p>
<p>"checkbookmom...(or anyone else reading)....students don't have to take math at NYU."</p>
<p>ooooh, so S should have applied after all??? <g></g></p>
<p>^^^ yeah.....I thought I would put that out there!! :D</p>
<p>Actually, while NYU/Tisch has a significant component of liberal arts credits, they are VERY liberal in what you can take. You have to take seven Theater Studies classes (and for anyone going into theater, they should enjoy these) and 8 liberal arts classes, two of which are freshmen writing classes in the arts but otherwise, a choice of a full array of classes in wide distribution areas.....truly very widely defined categories....no required math, language, history, etc.</p>
<p>PS....checkbookmom should be related to StickerShock....LOL (based on the names only)</p>