<p>I really don't think anyone in the world is the "authority" on this subject. Harvard is #1 in terms of prestige, everything among YPSM is up to debate. </p>
<p>In the end, I think international reputation has absolutely no effect on the education we receive. Our school itself has an overrated effect on the education we receive (as it is ultimately up to what the student puts in). This is a pointless debate.</p>
<p>piccolojunior- I sincerely hope you were joking in your last post. When's the closest Stanford ever came to a national title in men's basketball? Who's stanford's current coach (I'll give you a hint, he's a dukie). Who the **** remembers anyone who was on the 04' team? (all I know is Childress) Do you realize that the class of 08 is the first one since '85 to not reach a final four? </p>
<p>Oh, and since when do people ever care about the regular season? Do you keep tabs on how many wins Stanford has each season it fails to reach the tourney? </p>
<p>Obviously Stanford beats Duke out in academic prestige.</p>
<p>but ... basketball prestige? It's not even debatable.</p>
<p>Since some one here claims Harvard and Yale are the top 2 universities in US, I would like to take a deeper look using US NEWS graduate school department rankings.</p>
<h1>Round 1: Yale vs Harvard</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, and psycology, while Harvard wins in politics, sociology, economics, medical school, business school, education school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. They are tied in English. </p>
<p>The score is 3.5 : 13.5. Harvard wins hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 2: Yale vs Stanford</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, and English, while Stanford wins in politics, psycology, sociology, economics, medical school, business school, education school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. </p>
<p>The score is 3:14. Stanford wins hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 3: Yale vs Berkeley</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, medical school, while Berkeley wins in psycology, sociology, economics, business school, education school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. They are tied in politics and English.</p>
<p>The score is 4:13. Berkeley wins hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 4: Yale vs MIT</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, medical school, psycology, sociology, politics, and English, while MIT wins in economics, business school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology.</p>
<p>The score is 7:9. MIT wins.</p>
<h1>Round 4: Yale vs Princeton</h1>
<p>Yale wins in English, law school, medical school, business school, psycology, English, chemistry, and biology, while Princeton wins in economics, politics, sociology, engineering school, math, physics, computer science, and geoscience.</p>
<p>They are tied in history. So Yale is tied to Princeton 8.5 : 8.5.</p>
<p>In conclusion, Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley destroy Yale in major by major combat. MIT beats Yale mainly by dominating in science and engineering. Princeton is tied with Yale.</p>
<p>^^ If you live and breathe by U.S. News graduate school rankings, then yes. If you do, then you would also have to concede that Yale is the #3 undergrad.</p>
<p>You also left out other areas such as Fine Arts and Nursing, where Yale thrives (and would tie Yale and MIT and put Yale ahead of Princeton).</p>
<p>Undergrad is something quite different, and the experience is influenced by infinitely more factors than [flawed] departmental rankings that are largely [entirely?] based on peer reviews. The big problem with these rankings is that, Yale has improved significantly in sciences and is rapidly improving in engineering, however, these improvements will take years to gain any kind of recognition from academics. The departmental rankings really don't represent the quality of programs in their present state, and they really are resistant to change.</p>
<p>Also, I hope you weren't referring to me as someone who claims that Harvard and Yale are the top two [undergrad] universities in the U.S. I don't think any university can rightfully claim that #2 spot; PYSM are all strong and possibly equal contenders (unless you ONLY go by graduate departmental rankings and ignore the infinitely many factors such as student to faculty ratio, class sizes, endowment per capita, internship/study abroad opportunities, strength of student body by SAT/ACT/GPA, extracurricular opportunities, job placement, grad placement, and the list goes on...)</p>
<p>gqunit: look at the number of students at stanford that hail from california and the left coast (from memory it is huge) and discuss the subject of past declinations of stanford offers of admission in a particular (non-california) area or at a particular school with stanford adcoms. They are very aware of the acceptance demographics and act accordingly.</p>
<h1>"Round 4: Yale vs Princeton</h1>
<p>Yale wins in English, law school, medical school, business school, psycology, English, chemistry, and biology, while Princeton wins in economics, politics, sociology, engineering school, math, physics, computer science, and geoscience."</p>
<p>That's a ridiculous comparison. Princeton doesn't even have law, medical, or business schools.</p>
<p>^^ Yeah and Yale was compared against schools that have education schools, which it also doesn't have. I don't really see the value in such comparisons at the undergraduate level. At the graduate level they <em>may</em> say something, but again, these rankings really don't represent the current state of programs at schools, since PA will always lag years behind.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, Princeton's lack of professional schools is a detriment to its national/international reputation. (It's also not necessarily an unfair comparison; if P had professional schools, it would be spreading its resources more thinly, and would likely have weaker programs in other areas).</p>
<p>
[quote]
You also left out other areas such as Fine Arts and Nursing, where Yale thrives (and would tie Yale and MIT and put Yale ahead of Princeton).
[/quote]
But what if we divide engineering school into several majors: mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, computer engineering, material science, aerospace engineering, chemical engineering, and etc? I bet MIT and Princeton will be ahead of Yale again. Of course, the gap between Yale and Stanford or Berkeley will be even bigger.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's a ridiculous comparison. Princeton doesn't even have law, medical, or business schools.
[/quote]
I'm doing a breadth and depth comparison.There is no such a ranking methodology that everybody will agree on. When you compare X university with Y university, you may alternatively compare the overlapped fields only.</p>
<p>^^ Well, it's not dividing. Fine Arts and Nursing are broad, separate disciplines, just like engineering. You could divide fine arts into music, theatre, and art. I'm just saying you would have to include it, since it and Nursing receive their own ranking categories in U.S. News.</p>
<p>When comparing 2 universities, one method will be only looking at the fields that both universities have. For example, when comparing Yale with Princeton, you want to leave out the medical school, business school, and law school, becuase Princeton doesn't have those professional schools. Instead, you want to focus on the fields such as math, physics, English, politics, and etc, because both Yale and Princeton both have those majors.</p>
<p>Now here we go.</p>
<h1>Round 1: Yale vs Harvard</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, and psycology, while Harvard wins in politics, sociology, economics, medical school, business school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. They are tied in English. </p>
<p>The score is 3.5 : 12.5. Harvard wins hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 2: Yale vs Stanford</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, and English, while Stanford wins in politics, psycology, sociology, economics, medical school, business school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. </p>
<p>The score is 3:13. Stanford wins hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 3: Yale vs Berkeley</h1>
<p>Yale wins in history, law school, while Berkeley wins in psycology, sociology, economics, business school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. They are tied in politics and English.</p>
<p>The score is 3:12. Berkeley wins hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 4: Yale vs MIT</h1>
<p>Yale wins in psycology, sociology, politics, while MIT wins in economics, business school, engineering school, math, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology.</p>
<p>The score is 3:9. MIT beats Yale hands down.</p>
<h1>Round 5: Yale vs Princeton</h1>
<p>Yale wins in English, psycology, English, chemistry, and biology, while Princeton wins in economics, politics, sociology, engineering school, math, physics, computer science, and geoscience. They are tied in history. </p>
<p>So the score is 5.5 : 8.5. Princeton beats Yale.</p>
<h1>Round 6: Yale vs Caltech</h1>
<p>Yale wins in economics, while Caltech wins in engineering school, chemistry, physics, computer science, geoscience, and biology. They are tied in math.</p>
<p>The score is 1.5 : 6.5. Caltech beats Yale.</p>
<p>So HSBMPC beat Yale in a combat of overlapped majors.</p>
<p>Yale has a relatively weak graduate program. It's a commonly accepted fact.</p>
<p>Since this thread is about prestige (as is every other one in this forum), I'll say that when it comes to international prestige, those schools with top-rated programs in math, science, and engineering tend to be more famous and highly regarded than those known mainly for their other programs. These are the majors that will be most effective in moving people ahead economically, and international students will admire schools that will help them get ahead in life especially in countries that are not so wealthy.</p>
<p>Why the hell do we care about international prestige? Most or almost all of us live in the United States. When do we ever need international prestige in our degree?</p>
<p>When you need to use international prestige to distinguish between schools, you know you are splitting hairs.</p>
<p>datalook, that's a very good way of ranking schools. Comparing departmental rankings to see which school has a stronger academic reputation is an awesome idea and is something I've advocated in the past. It actually gives a tangible way to measure the overall undergraduate reputation of an institution, rather than simply claiming that schools like Dartmouth, Princeton, Yale, etc. have a better undergraduate reputation because of their "undergraduate focus."</p>
<p>Three complaints though:</p>
<p>1) Business/Law/Med schools are grad schools</p>
<p>2) Your list favors schools with crappy engineering programs because you count engineering as one major, whereas it is five or six majors. It's equivalent to counting physics, biology, and chemistry as just "science" and not counting them as individual majors. Schools with poor science programs will benefit if you do this, and likewise, schools with poor engineering programs such as Harvard and Yale benefit in your rankings because of this.</p>
<p>3) The rankings should somehow include all majors at these schools. What if Yale is, say, really good at something that no other school offers? This doesn't get accounted for in your ranking.</p>
<p>To Brown Man1987:</p>
<p>Let's see...off the top of my head...</p>
<p>1) Because the world is becoming more global?
2) Because it's good to expand your horizons?
3) Because your next boss could be a foreign-born?
4) Because you may need/want to work overseas someday?</p>
<p>And why talk about prestige in the first place? Success in life has very little to do with where your school is ranked in the USNWR. A famous name (domestically or internationally) may lead to more interviews initially especially for entry-level jobs, but as you get older, it will matter less and less.</p>
<p>brownman, he's going by U.S. News graduate rankings. since U.S. news doesn't bother to divide engineering, it's not possible. also, you could divide many other disciplines such as biology, business, fine arts, etc; there's just no point.</p>
<p>and comparing by overlap is not a good way to go about comparing schools. Yale obviously offers more than Caltech, MIT, and Princeton. Because those schools choose to focus on a few areas in graduate studies, and Yale has more breadth and depth, Caltech, MIT, and Princeton receive an unfair advantage in the overlap comparison. it's all about the way you focus/spend your resources, and these schools obviously have different, though equally honorable, missions.</p>
<p>To techie: I still don't follow. Why would those characteristics require a degree with more international prestige?</p>
<p>If you live in the United States, you need a degree with domestic prestige only.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And why talk about prestige in the first place? Success in life has very little to do with where your school is ranked in the USNWR. A famous name (domestically or internationally) may lead to more interviews initially especially for entry-level jobs, but as you get older, it will matter less and less.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've stated this fact many, many, and I mean many times (even multiple times on this thread itself probably) but everyone seems to conveniently ignore it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and comparing by overlap is not a good way to go about comparing schools. Yale obviously offers more than Caltech, MIT, and Princeton. Because those schools choose to focus on a few areas in graduate studies, and Yale has more breadth and depth, Caltech, MIT, and Princeton receive an unfair advantage in the overlap comparison. it's all about the way you focus/spend your resources, and these schools obviously have different, though equally honorable, missions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Read my point number 3 in post 875:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I edited and I guess you didn't see. I agree with you.</p>
<p>Why does Domestic prestige matter?</p>
<p>I picked my schools based solely on its reputation in the field I'm interested in taking in the future. Let me go to Harvard for engineering. It may sound impressive, but you will be heavily looked down upon by peers from other schools who are in the know and are in the mix.</p>
<p>
<p>You said it yourself, we're arguing semantics. If you really want to, we can get into moral relativism here but I think for all practical purposes, most of society holds educational institutions to high standards of integrity and by taking advantage of its prospective students, Duke has breached that standard of integrity that most hold educational institutions to.
Ok let's entertain your ridiculous notion that a non-negligible number of Duke premeds don't use the Premed Advising Center's services at all. It would be MISLEADING to report the total acceptance rate in this case because its purely the own fault of these students for not using the extensive support systems that the school has set in place for them. If these hypothetical students want to do handle things independently, then they ARE INDEPENDENT of the school. The 86% med school acceptance percentage is accurate if the student utlilizes the school's resources, which they should.</p>
<p>In fact, if the overall rate was somehow a lot lower, wouldn't it show HOW GREAT Duke's premed advising is because it is able to dramatically increase the chances for a student to be accepted to med school versus if one went solo? Actually, it would look good if the overall rate was lower, since then it would be able to isolate two important variables in this med school acceptance process:the pure individual caliber of the student vs. the pure impact of the school's advising system on a student's admissions chances. It would indeed make Duke look even better!:)</p>