<p>^ L-O-L (10char)</p>
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^Well it can look for whatever it wants. Although, just because there are more written responses in the Stanford application, then that doesn't neccessarily mean they place higher value in that area than say Harvard does. I think both schools list The Essay as being "Very Important" in their admissions criteria.</p>
<p>However, I buy your assertion that the SAT isn't all-knowing and that Stanford students are probably roughly on par with Yale and Harvard students AS LONG as you also are willing to admit that Duke, Dartmouth and Penn students are just as smart as HYPS kids. If you don't agree with that, then a clear bias arises in your logic.
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<p>Well, first off, Harvard lists the essay as "considered" while Stanford lists it as "very important".</p>
<p>College</a> Search - Harvard College - Admission
College</a> Search - Stanford University - THE FARM - Admission</p>
<p>Are Duke, Dartmouth, and Penn students as smart as HYPS kids? Depends. Do you think you'll be able to tell the difference between a HYPS sutdent or a Duke Student? Nah. However, it is my impression that these schools are less selective and would be more lenient on admitting kids with higher "hard" academic credentials with less "softer" academic credentials than HYPS (especially due to Duke, Dartmouth, and Penn's ED program), which is evidenced by these schools' higher admit rate despite having a weaker applicant pool. In essence, a kid with a 2300 and a 3.9 UW stands a really good chance to get into these schools but may not be as academically bright (and not get into HYPS) as other 2300/3.9 kids who would get into HYPS. And especially considering these schools cross-admit battles, it's pretty clear HYPS beats these schools strongly so they would be able to have the pick of the talent.</p>
<p>To make it a little more clear if I was confusing before: All 2300s (or any other score) are not created equal. While Duke, Dartmouth, and Penn often admit most kids who apply with these kind of scores HYPS will not admit all of them. And, considering that Duke, Dartmouth, and Penn historically lose badly in the cross admit with HYPS the "better" 2300s that they admit will probably be going to HYPS leaving them with the "weaker" 2300s. A more extreme example of this is the kids with 1800s going to these schools. Most kids who score 1800s are accepted at my state school Rutgers. However, the kids who scored 1800s who could somehow get into HYPS are very likely smarter than those who scored 1800s and are going to Rutgers. In this way, Rutgers gets the majority and "weaker" 1800s than HYPS.</p>
<p>Therefore, no, I do not think the student bodies at Duke, Dartmouth and Penn are as strong as those at HYPS. However, I do think they are extremely strong and close to the quality of those at HYPS.</p>
<p>Dingleberry -- are you proposing that one's intellect is strictly measured by how well they do on a standardized test?</p>
<p>You guys are acting as though what someone scores on the SAT dictates what school they attend. In the real world, we all know that is simply not how it works. Someone who picks their college solely based on SAT averages is not living in the real world. </p>
<p>Also, arguing over the difference between Harvard, Stanford, or any other top school is rather ridiculous. I might not know everything, but I highly doubt the single factor of going to Harvard as opposed to Stanford or say UCLA will alter someone's life significantly.</p>
<p>When you go to a particular school, you do not become that school, own that school, or posess the prestige of a school. How higly qualified and world renown your school's chemistry department (for example) is not going to mean that someone with an econ degree from the same university is of the same stature of the researchers and professors in that department.</p>
<p>Dingleberry looks like EAD again. EAD used to claim school X has a stronger student body than school Y because it's SAT scores are higher... </p>
<p>Do you realize how silly the difference between average SAT scores you mention is? Especially a 1440 versus a 1480? </p>
<p>This means you take an average Stanford student and an average HYPM student and the average Stanford student would have gotten two more questions wrong on the SAT than the average HYPM student. Two Questions! How does this make any difference? Will somebody who got two extra questions right on the SAT make for a more intellectual conversation? Obviously not. We're not even accounting for Stanford's recruited athletes here. </p>
<p>If you really think Duke, Penn, Dartmouth are on par with Stanford in the eyes of students you need a reality check. Look at these cross admit rates from a NYTIMES article.</p>
<p>The</a> New York Times > Week in Review > Image > Collegiate Matchups: Predicting Student Choices</p>
<p>Stanford 92% Duke 8% </p>
<p>Stanford 85% Penn 15%</p>
<p>Stanford 82% Dartmouth 18%</p>
<p>Maybe Penn and Dartmouth might be close to Stanford in the eyes of some students. Duke? No way. Not even close.</p>
<p>i think this is all about how you define "stronger".</p>
<p>If "stronger" means higher SAT stats <em>to you</em>, then yes, HYP has slightly stronger students. But that's <em>your</em> definition.</p>
<p>As far as admission goes, Stanford is as tough to get in as HYP. The admit rate is about the same as HYP and it's about even with HYP in cross-admit battle. Stanford can easily pick a class with higher stats if it wants. Stanford just tends to see more strength in those with lower stats, the one that considered "weaker" by some of you. In the eyes of Stanford admission, their student body is as strong as HYP's.</p>
<p>I collected data from 60 people who were cross-admitted by HYPS for class 2012. The numbers will speak the truth to certain extent. Out of the 60 cross-admits:</p>
<p>---------- Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT
admitted ......37.....34......43.........30.......25
will attend.....13......15.....15..........10........7</p>
<p>I try not to make any comments on the data since I drew fire to myself many times because of this. But, it is very clear to me about how many cross-admits in total; who got the most cross-admits etc.</p>
<p>So far I know from the official released data, Yale and Stanford had 160 cross-admits, 80 went to Yale and the rest went to Stanford. You don't care too much about the SAT scores, it is who got the most cross-admits matters. To me, Princeton got the most, and of course, had the lowest yield.</p>
<p>I agree with Cervantes' post, but I'll add that I think the difference between the two groups is that the students at HYPS are often more "accomplished"--in concrete terms--than those at Duke, Penn, etc. For example, you'll see quite a few ISEF/STS/etc. winners at HYPS, as well as NMS winners, Elks MVS scholarship winners, international olympiad finalists/winners, etc. These students will also tend to have stronger ECs, I'd say--some are downright amazing (starting non-profits that raise many thousands of dollars, doing awesome research and getting published in journals), and some have really strong resumes because they're passionate about what they do. Some are just simply interesting and engaged; I know someone starting at Stanford this year is a beekeeper; another collects items in the ocean (old shells, coral, lost possessions, etc.) for a local business that makes pretty things out of them; another makes her own violins.</p>
<p>Now, I'm 100% sure that most Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, etc. students could go to HYPS and succeed there; it's not as though the workload is going to be harder. I don't think it'd be that easy to tell the difference between Penn students and Princeton students on an individual basis, either.</p>
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Stanford can easily pick a class with higher stats if it wants.
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<p>That's very true. I think Stanford has stated before that it could fill its class, many times over, with near perfect SAT scores and GPAs; next year's class could, if they wanted to, have an average SAT score of a 2250. Clearly, Stanford doesn't want this. I think their added essays are evidence of that.</p>
<p>I'll add to ewho's data the official word: Among HYPSM, the yield rankings were (from highest to lowest): Harvard (~74% initial yield, I think), Stanford (72%, none from waitlist), Yale (69%), MIT (66%), Princeton (58%, I think, before waitlist). Harvard, of course, won cross-admit battles; this year, the only school that Stanford lost to was Harvard, and it tied with Yale. I'm pretty sure that Princeton loses to Yale, and Yale loses to Harvard. Not sure about the others.</p>
<p>
Speaking for Penn, this statement is inaccurate. Although no school publishes official admissions data for combined SAT scores, Penn's published data for the Class of 2011 reveals that only 26% of applicants scoring 750-800 on SAT-CR were accepted, 21% of applicants scoring 750-800 on SAT-M were accepted, and 27% of applicants scoring 750-800 on SAT-W were accepted:</p>
<p>Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile</p>
<p>A quick scan through the annual acceptance threads--both ED and RD--in the Penn forum also reveals that many 2300 scorers are rejected. Further, many formal and informal statements from Penn admissions officials indicate that they basically look for a threshold SAT score for most applicants, and that beyond that the admissions decisions are based not on relative scores, but on other factors (ECs, demonstrated leadership, essays, recs, etc.). </p>
<p>Don't underestimate the extent to which admissions at Penn and comparable schools are holistic. Penn receives about 23,000 applications every year and accepts about 3600 students to yield a class of 2400 (66% yield). Given that the median SAT score for Penn's enrolled class is only about 20 points lower than Sanford's median, it's safe to assume that--like Stanford--the vast majority of people who apply to Penn will have scores at least approaching the median (i.e., they self-select and don't waste time/money applying to a school with median or average SATs much above theirs). As all of the available evidence indicates, the admissions decisions at Penn--even for 2300 scorers--are about much more than SAT scores. And the same is undoubtedly true at most other comparable schools.</p>
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Although no school publishes official admissions data for combined SAT scores
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<p>The word "combined" is the key. That effectively renders the data you just said useless.</p>
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A quick scan through the annual acceptance threads
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<p>Acceptance threads on CC = not accurate at all.</p>
<p>While what you say may be true, ask yourself: is Penn more selective than HYPS? I wouldn't think so. In my view, the reason that possibly more 2300+ scorers are rejected (adjusting for applicant pool size and admit pool size) is that HYPS are simply harder to get into; they attract stronger students and will have to look to other areas of excellence for admission. Thus, they are less likely (in comparison to Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, etc.) to accept high scorers (primarily on that trait).</p>
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I think this is really a matter of degree, and not as great a difference as one might assume. As I indicated in my previous post (#1256), most of the top 10-20 schools have many more applicants with high scores and GPAs than they can possibly accept, and their admissions decisions come down to how "accomplished" the applicants are, to use your term. Even with the yield/cross-admit hierarchy to which you referred, there are many more highly accomplished applicants in the combined top-10 schools' applicant pool than the 6,000 who end up attending HYPS. The concentrations of such students at the other top schools may not be as great as they are at HYPS, but they can be fairly close--as I said, it's a matter of degree. I think that's pretty much what you were saying, but I think it's worth emphasizing that the differences between HYPS and the other schools in this regard are not as stark as some might believe.</p>
<p>^^ agreed, I don't think they're that stark, either. I don't see a stark difference between HYPS and Berkeley, Michigan, etc. in terms of student body strength, either. I think there are differences, but not nearly as big as some on CC like to make them seem.</p>
<p>
I wasn't indicating that Penn is more or even as selective as HYPS. I was merely responding to Cervantes' assertion that Penn and comparable schools "often admit most kids who apply with these kind of scores [while] HYPS will not admit all of them" (empahsis added). My point was merely that Penn does not admit all or most of the high scorers. As many sources indicate, Penn's admissions process is not nearly as numbers-driven as Cervantes' statement implied. In other words, Penn doesn't tend to accept high scorers "primarily on that trait," as Penn's stated admissions policy, published admissions statistics, and extensive anecdotal evidence clearly indicate.</p>
<p>Point taken. Then, would you say that Penn accepts more 2300 scorers than HYPS would, adjusted for admit pool size? And if so, by what margin?</p>
<p>It's probable that Penn accepts a higher percentage of applicants who score 2300 than do HYPS, but of course Penn accepts a higher percentage of applicants in general than do those schools. If you isolate just Wharton with its 10% acceptance rate and 75% yield, however, that may not be the case.</p>
<p>Again, my dispute was merely with the assertion that Penn accepts most of the 2300 scorers, i.e., that a 2300 virtually assures admission to Penn. It clearly doesn't.</p>
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It clearly doesn't.
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<p>I haven't seen anything that makes that clear...</p>
<p>You don't know if they do or do not.</p>
<p>OK--what's your evidence that any of HYPS don't accept the majority of 2300's (other than anecdotal)? The only HARD evidence (other than self-reporting here on CC) that I've ever seen on SAT admit rates for any of these schools was broken down by individual sections, and not combined.</p>
<p>I'm not saying that these schools actually DO accept most or all of the 2300 scorers who apply. I'm just saying that the evidence that Penn doesn't (formal and informal statements from admissions officials, stats for individual SAT sections, numerous self-reports here on CC, etc.) is comparable to that for any of these schools. There are enough 2300 scorers who report rejection in the Penn forum to support my statement that a 2300 clearly does not assure admission to Penn.</p>
<p>Well, here's Princeton's data:</p>
<p>Princeton</a> University | Admission Statistics</p>
<p>Only 26% 2300+ers are admitted at Princeton. HYS are considered to be as selective as P so I can't imagine that statistic being drastically different for any of the other 3 schools. I do know that Duke admits 59% of all kids with 1550 out of 1600 on the SAT (they don't care about writing but that's roughly a 2300/2400) so that's where my belief that most kids with 2300 kids would be admitted at these schools. I understand your beef with my statement 45 Percenter and I do admit a revision should be made. I mean that Penn, Dartmouth and Duke, will be more willing to admit a 2300er than HYPS, primarily on that trait. It doesn't mean that the admissions process is number based, not at all, its just more numbers based than HYPS.</p>
<p>^ My impression is that Duke tends to emphasize SATs a bit more than Penn, and even Stanford, given that Duke's median SATs tend to be higher than both of those schools' medians, even though it's acceptance rate is also higher and its yield is significantly lower. So if Duke admits 59% of kids in the 1550-1600 range, I would suspect that Penn admits a lower percentage in that range (i.e., 50% or less). This would be consistent with the fact that for the Class of 2011, Penn accepted only 26% of the kids with a SAT-CR score of 750-800, and only 21% of the kids with a SAT-M score of 750-800 (and taking into account that there is not always parity of scores):</p>
<p>Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile</p>
<p>It may only be semantics, but I guess my dispute is with the notion that Penn is more willing than HYPS to admit a 2300er "primarily on that trait." From my understanding of Penn's admissions process, a 2300 alone--even combined with a high GPA--is not enough to get a kid admitted, absent superior ECs, recs, essays, etc., so I don't think Penn is admitting any 2300er primarily based on the 2300. Is Penn admitting a higher percentage of 2300 applicants than HYPS? No doubt, but Penn is also admitting a higher percentage of applicants in general than HYPS. Again, with the exception of Wharton.</p>
<p>Beyond a certain threshold (i.e., something in the neighborhood of 2100), I just don't think Penn is too obsessed with an applicant's SATs, and it's not going to admit someone with a 2300 over someone with a 2200--or even a 2100--just because of the higher score. I say that based on statements I've read from Penn admissions officials, and also based on both the official and the unofficial data that is readily available. And it's not a "Tufts Syndrome" phenomenon--the ED results reveal this as well.</p>