<p>barrons, I advise you to consider my arguement concerning peer groups' importance. The smarter the students around you, the more intense study groups, the more intense the competition/ curve is, and the more one learns. Thus, the best schools have the best student bodies, which is why umich, while a very good university, does not belong w/ vandy, wash u, and nd. Perhaps their biz school is better, but that's one part of the university. In overall ug. education, esp. the liberal arts, the other schools, w/ smaller class sizes and better peer groups, win out.</p>
<p>ucb, i know ross is ug. too, but, still, its only one part of the university. I think its the smallest ug. college. Arts and Sciences is the largest, and, as stated earlier, it does not provide as rich of an academic experience as the top privates do w/ smaller class sizes, profs more focused on ug. education, profs less focused on research, and better peer groups. One extra tidbit: its nice to have a noble laureate as your professor, but if your at a huge research uni, i.e. umich, how much will that help you, besides prestige? How many times will he sit with you outside of class going over some of the tougher concepts? How many times will he invite you dinner? How good will the recommendation he writes be, given the fact your class had at least 100 other students in it and a TA graded your paper?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Forbes is a joke.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Off topic, but it was pretty cool when they caught Steven Glass.. :)</p>
<p>of course everything turns into a Michigan/UVA/Berkeley vs. top non-ivy privates at the end. </p>
<p>What I think is unfair is that most people that are against the elite publics have never set foot in Ann Arbor, Charlottesville, or Berkeley, and they argue based on a set of stereotypes. My classes were small at Michigan, my friends' too. I've had a chance to do undergraduate research for 2 years with world renowned researchers on a 1 to 1 basis. Notre Dame, Tufts, Vanderbilt are fine schools, but honestly, I don't know of many top students at Michigan that even applied there.</p>
<p>what keefer? Everyone I know at ND had umich as a safety. That's right a safety. Meanwhile, you can check the facebook groups: most people, myself included, who are going to ND are turning down other phenomonal schools. I, for example, am turning down Northwestern, Vandy, and Cornell. Someone from my h.s. is turning down Duke for ND. Someone else on facebook turned down stanford for Nd, and another person was turning down dartmouth for ND. ND, as a unique, religious school, gets people to turn down schools, where the students probably wouldn't even both w/ umich.lots of people on the nd facebook group are turning down g-town for nd, and, as stated earlier, they are also turning down their safety, umich, for nd too. I can't and won't defend tufts. Its not on the same level of vandy, ND, g-town, rice, Northwestern, JHU, and emory. But for the schools just mentioned, unless someone got into ross, they will not be attending umich. </p>
<p>Here's some even less reliable evidence, but evidence nonetheless: my student host at ND had turned down uchicago (not fun enough for him). my student host at umich had turned down george washington, but said it was a close call. </p>
<p>if you want to talk about comparing schools w/ regards to umich vs. lowest ivy + other selective privates. You just lost. Face it, for ug. the majority of people, given equal finances, are gonna pick lowest ivy + other selective privates (usnews 10-22) over umich.</p>
<p>"I don't know of many top students at Michigan that even applied there."</p>
<p>b/c they probably couldn't get in!</p>
<p>umich act (27-31)</p>
<p>usnews 10-22 privates act (31-34)</p>
<p>It doesn't make sense to me that the number of graduates in "Who's Who" (which I didn't even know existed anymore!) could be relevant to the <em>current</em> quality of a university. Most people listed in Who's Who probably graduated from these schools 20-40 years ago. What does that have to do with what the schools are like now?</p>
<p>I'd consider UMich on par with ND for undergrad education, and much more prestigious for research.</p>
<p>"someone else on facebook"-nice touch.</p>
<p>1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
2 Princeton University
3 California Institute of Technology
4 Yale University
5 Harvard University
6 Stanford University
7 Columbia University
8 University of Pennsylvania
9 Brown University
10 Swarthmore College
11 Washington University in St. Louis
12 Amherst College
13 University of California at Berkeley
14 Duke University
15 Dartmouth College
16 Pomona College
17 University of California at Los Angeles
18 Rice University
19 Williams College
20 Georgetown University
21 Cornell University
22 Claremont McKenna College
23 Harvey Mudd College
24 The College of William and Mary
25 Middlebury College </p>
<p>The</a> Selectivity Illusion</p>
<p>Interesting statistics.
I'd agree on the 'high stats' Duke wait-list.</p>
<p>keefer, you know you can't refute the evidence. If you want it verified, check the ND 2012 facebook group.</p>
<p>"I don't know of many top students at Michigan that even applied there."
b/c they probably couldn't get in!
umich act (27-31)
usnews 10-22 privates act (31-34)"</p>
<p>Is that so thejoker? Are you sure? Have you actually checked? First of all, most Michigan students do not generally consider Notre Dame. The schools Michigan students consider most often are Brown, Cornell, Duke, Northwestern, Penn, UIUC and Wisconsin. So Michigan may be a popular "safety" for Notre Dame students, but it does not go the other way around. Most Michigan students do not consider Notre Dame. And if Notre Dame students really apply to Michigan as their safety, they truly have dellusions of grandeur. Yes, Michigan is easier to get into, but it is still one of the 25 most selective universities (not including LACs) in the country. Anybody who applies to Michigan as a safety had better apply early and hope for the best. </p>
<p>Secondly, the mid 50% ACT range at most top 25 universities isn't 31-34. Here are a couple of examples that illustrate my point:</p>
<p>Brown University
27-33
<a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Institutional_Research/documents/CDS2006_2007.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Institutional_Research/documents/CDS2006_2007.pdf</a></p>
<p>Carnegie Mellon University
28-32
<a href="http://www.cmu.edu/ira/CDS/cds_2006_07/CDS2006_2007%20FINAL%2011Apr2007.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.cmu.edu/ira/CDS/cds_2006_07/CDS2006_2007%20FINAL%2011Apr2007.pdf</a></p>
<p>Cornell University
28-32
<a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000375.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000375.pdf</a></p>
<p>Dartmouth College
28-34
<a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/cds2006-2007.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/cds2006-2007.pdf</a></p>
<p>Michigan
27-31
<a href="http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_cds2007.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_cds2007.pdf</a></p>
<p>Northwestern University
29-33
2006-07</a> First-time, first-year (freshman) admission, Common Data Set - Northwestern University</p>
<p>University of Chicago
28-33
<a href="https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=377%5B/url%5D">https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=377</a></p>
<p>Vanderbilt University
28-32
<a href="https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2006%5B/url%5D">https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2006</a></p>
<p>All the private schools listed above have mean ACT scores of 30 or 31 at best. Michigan's mean is 29. So Michigan's 27-31 range isn't that far off, especially when you consider that Michigan is larger.</p>
<p>"if you want to talk about comparing schools w/ regards to umich vs. lowest ivy + other selective privates. You just lost. Face it, for ug. the majority of people, given equal finances, are gonna pick lowest ivy + other selective privates (usnews 10-22) over umich."</p>
<p>thejoker, students at all top universities turn down other top universities. So far this year, CCers have chosen Michigan over Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Emory, Georgetown, McGill, NYU-Stern, Notre Dame, Rice, UCLA, UNC, USAFA, UVa, Vanderbilt and Washington University.</p>
<p>Probably mostly because of money? Honestly, I couldn't really imagine other reasons...</p>
<p>I myself didn't even apply to Michigan because I'm OOS so tuition is expensive, it's cold in Ann Arbor, and it's a HUGE state school...but no doubt it is a top public school.</p>
<p>LOL, I honestly can't believe he's putting Michigan down. In terms of research Michigan is far superior to ND. If I hadn't gotten into my other top choice I would be at Michigan Engineering right now.</p>
<p>"vc08, what rankings rank umich and berkley 3rd? Business week actually has mendoza, ND, 3rd. umich is 7th, berkely is around there too."</p>
<p>Thejoker, there are two main rankings of undergraduate Business schools. Businessweek is one of them, the USNWR is the other. According to the USNWR, Cal (Haas) and Michigan (Ross) are tied at #3 in the Nation and Notre Dame is ranked #18. Michigan (Ross) has been ranked as high as #1 according to the USNWR ranking of undergraduate Business programs, but that was a decade ago. Businessweek just began ranking undergraduate Business programs two years ago. This year was their third ranking. According to the ranking, Notre Dame (Mendoza) was #3, Michigan (Ross) was #6 and Cal (Haas) was #11. The reason for Ross's low ranking was the student survey rank. Students at Ross cited academic rigor as their primary reason for discontentment. I guess Ross should ease up a little!</p>
<p>Isn't it kind of obvious and not very telling of anything that the middle 50% of a very large school won't be as qualified as the middle 50% of a much smaller school? You're comparing their 500-1000th best admits to our 1500-4500th best admits. Really, this shows that the top 25% of students at Michigan (the segment of the student body you'll likely be taking classes with if you're really able to pick and choose from top schools) are on average "more qualified" than people at schools like Notre Dame.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reason for Ross's low ranking was the student survey rank. Students at Ross cited academic rigor as their primary reason for discontentment. I guess Ross should ease up a little!
[/quote]
Businessweek quoted the same reason for Haas's lower ranking. *** is this?!? Who says getting a college degree these days has to be easy?!? The sense of entitlement exhibited by American society is a major problem, IMO.</p>
<p><em>Steps down from soapbox</em></p>
<p>I'm sure Mendoza got pretty high ratings in that category, since relatively under qualified recruited athletes have no problem getting business degrees.</p>