Top 25 Undergraduate Universities

College Search & Selection
141

<p>
[Quote]
State schools like UMich and Berkeley basically have "cutoffs" for admissions when it comes to GPA/SAT and their admissions processes aren't very holistic at all.

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>A) Not true. I have a friend with a 1650 SAT admitted to Berkeley, but rejected from a Cal-State school. Again, if it's not holistic, why are there so many 2300 people on this site getting rejected from UCLA? Agreed, they may not sweat over each application in the same way as HYPS do, but you try spending 30 minutes each on 55,000 applications, the most of any school in the country (at UCLA). Come back when you've figured out a way to make it "holistic" to your liking.</p>

<p>B) As for the diversity issue, the Ivy League still practices Affirmative Action, which helps it maintain a high level of ethnic diversity. It is unfair to compare this to public schools, as they are legally banned from using it in admissions (Source: Gratz/Grutter vs Bollinger)</p>

<p>C)
[Quote]
Although they are good schools, the top publics can't come close to competing with the non-HYP privates in terms of selectivity and student body strength. This is why the top publics like Berkeley and UMich will never crack the top 20 in USNEWS in forseeable future.

[/Quote]
Berkeley discovered 17 periodic elements, has 243 Olympic athletes, more #1 ranked depts. than any other university in the country (including HYPS), 131 Fulbright Scholars, 18 Nobel Laureates (including 3 in '06-'07), developed the Big-Bang theory and the atomic bomb (both projects assisted by the help of undergrads), leads public universities in the distribution of Pell Grants, 358 Guggenheim fellows, 29 current MacArthur "Genius award" recipients on the faculty, has the 4th largest library system in North America, and is ranked as the #1 Public University in the world. </p>

<p>And you question their student body and faculty based on a USNWR ranking?</p>

<p>It's an absolute shame that you base the entire reputation of an established university off of a 100 point difference in SAT score, and the most controversial ranking system out there (USNWR). You're a big boy now, put the magazine down and learn to think for yourself.</p>

142

<p>The kids here talking **** about state schools are so nieve. You sound stupid when you throw out arguments like "classes are smaller, the school must be better!" Honestly, do some research before you make posts, because some of these "Berkeley/Mich have cutoff" posts are 100% untrue. Honestly, don't talk about things you have no clue about.</p>

143

<p>Here is my top 25 (and my next 30) based on quality of undergrad experience. I emphasized selectivity (SAT 75th percentile) but also took into account the balance of undergraduate to graduate. My thinking is that there is an optimum undergraduate ratio. Graduate students and programs shouldn't overshadow undergraduates but they should be present to offer undergraduates research opportunities, role models, and other indirect support. </p>

<p>school, SAT 75th percentile, percent undergraduates</p>

<p>Princeton University 1580 68%
Dartmouth College 1550 71%
Cornell University 1500 69%
Brown University 1530 74%
University of Notre Dame 1510 72%
University of California-Berkeley 1450 70%
Rice University 1510 60%
Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus 1420 69%
College of William and Mary 1450 74%
Boston College 1430 67%
University of California-Los Angeles 1400 69%
Washington University in St Louis 1530 55%
Brandeis University 1460 62%
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 1410 74%
University of Maryland-College Park 1380 72%
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 1420 64%
University of Wisconsin-Madison 1380 72%
Wake Forest University 1410 64%
University of Florida 1360 69%
Worcester Polytechnic Institute 1380 73%
Yale University 1580 47%
Carnegie Mellon University 1490 55%
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 1420 78%
Lehigh University 1350 69%
University of Miami 1370 67%
University of Virginia-Main Campus 1420 61%
Vanderbilt University 1480 55%
University of Pennsylvania 1520 50%
Syracuse University 1330 69%
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities 1380 64%
Saint Louis University-Main Campus 1320 70%
University of Washington-Seattle Campus 1320 70%
Duke University 1540 47%
Emory University 1470 54%
Tufts University 1490 52%
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 1390 62%
The University of Texas at Austin 1350 75%
Tulane University of Louisiana 1370 63%
University of Iowa 1320 72%
Northwestern University 1500 50%
California Institute of Technology 1580 41%
Ohio State University-Main Campus 1330 74%
Marquette University 1290 70%
University of Connecticut 1290 69%
Harvard University 1590 39%
Georgetown University 1490 48%
University of Rochester 1420 55%
Clark University 1310 74%
University of Georgia 1320 75%
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 1560 40%
University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus 1320 64%
University of Southern California 1460 50%
Boston University 1370 59%
The University of Tennessee 1270 71%</p>

144

<p>I like the general idea you are going with here, although it seems in some cases to hurt some small to medium size schools like Georgetown, Tufts, CalTech because their UG populations aren't that big; even if they aren't as well known for grad schools, so they probably have more of a UG than your listing indicates. It is probably harder to measure, but think it is more important not to determine whether a campus has 70% UG vs 55% UG, but what % of classes are under 25 students and taught exclusively by non-TA profs.</p>

<p>I don't think it's a matter of where a school ranks on USNWR vs where you would rank it based on your preferences, which is what the debate should really be about. I personally think having 25% of the score based on subjective, nebulous reputation is ridiculous as is having the ranking so weighted on whether a school has twice as much financial resources as it needs or 8x what it needs. If you are more concerned about 'the average' peers around you in a smaller environment, focus on some of the top private schools. If you like the idea of a larger environment that is more focused on research, go for one of top public universities. I think one of very overlooked aspects on here is the extent to which students change majors and how flexible their environment will be to accommodate for this. I feel many on here feel certain they will be the ones to find the cure for cancer or be the next Supreme Court justice without appreciating how drastically plans usually change.</p>

145

<p>
[quote]
It depends on what the student is looking to do. With some firms, especially consulting firms, hedge funds, private equity shops and to a lesser extent investment banks, if your school is not on their recruiting schedule, you have very little chance of getting a job there or you're more likely to make a connection to one of those companies through contacts made at Dartmouth. So, in that sense, yes, even if someone at UMichigan was good enough to go to Dartmouth, he will be hurt by going to UMichigan instead. Also, there is probably a lot more pressure to be one of the top people in order to get one of those jobs at UMichigan vs being slightly above average at Dartmouth is good enough for one of the top jobs, so it could be an additional reason why it could be a more pleasant experience at Dartmouth. Similarly, since MBA admissions is based largely on work experience, the result could be that the same person will have an easier time of ultimately gaining admission by going to Dartmouth over UMichigan.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Recruiting and employment are both very subjective processes. Employers base their decisions based on subjective measures, and many times they hire people that they just simply like through interviewing, etc. Also, my older brother is an analyst at an ibank and he says that the reason these top firms recruit heavily on Dartmouth and other top schools is because of the fact that these schools happen to have a higher concentration of stronger students on average and higher concentration of students who are aiming for ibank positions. Oddly enough, he said that there was a decent number of UMich Ross graduates at his firm regardless. Another variable that you have to account for is the fact that there may be more ivy leauge/ Dartmouth alums in Wall Street industry, thus having subjective bias towards giving more credit to those applicants from their alma mater. At the same time, UMich alums may be more prevalent in other industries and they may give more favor towards UMich applicants. My point is that based on some small sample of raw data, it is impossible to objectify a statement such as "Dartmouth is a better school because it will give you an edge in getting top jobs". I know that there is more of Georgetown and NYU Stern alums in many Wall street sectors compared to Yale. Does that indicate that those schools are superior to Yale in placement? Like I said, based on some raw data and not accouting for many variables, it is impossible to reach a definite, objective conclusion.</p>

146

<p>I don't think raw numbers of grads vs undergrads are a valid comparison.</p>

<p>For example, as a liberal arts college student, I don't think I am competing for the attention of the same faculty as, say, graduate students in the grad-only Dental school. Or the Vet school. Or the Med school. Etc...If you are going to look at undergrad/grad balances, they should only be for schools that have undergrads and grads in the same school.</p>

147

<p>
[Quote]
The kids here talking **** about state schools are so nieve. You sound stupid when you throw out arguments like "classes are smaller, the school must be better!" Honestly, do some research before you make posts, because some of these "Berkeley/Mich have cutoff" posts are 100% untrue. Honestly, don't talk about things you have no clue about.

[/Quote]
SO true!</p>

<p>
[Quote]
I think one of very overlooked aspects on here is the extent to which students change majors and how flexible their environment will be to accommodate for this. I feel many on here feel certain they will be the ones to find the cure for cancer or be the next Supreme Court justice without appreciating how drastically plans usually change.

[/Quote]
Also true! Great advice, students DO need to pick the school that will allow them the greatest opportunities to get an education they want in that environment, be it private or public.</p>

148

<p>My point is that based on some small sample of raw data, it is impossible to objectify a statement such as "Dartmouth is a better school because it will give you an edge in getting top jobs". "</p>

<p>Amazing as it may seem to overanxious high school seniors who are Dying To Be Investment Bankers for no other reason other than they perceive it's The High Life, many, MANY people graduate the top schools (however one defines top) and don't become investment bankers -- they just have everyday jobs, enjoy what they're doing, get ahead as appropriate, and go on with life. </p>

<p>It is so depressing to hear a college's merits be described in terms of how it gets people onto Wall Street, as if Wall Street was the entire reason for living or the only definition of a good job. </p>

<p>Why is getting an i-banking or similar job seen as any more impressive than getting any other good job? And I say this as an econ major who ultimately went into mgt consulting. </p>

<p>Personally, I LOVE that the alumni mag from NU features my fellow alumni doing all kinds of fascinating things, and that they all define success in so many interesting and unique ways, not merely in terms of i-banking or traditional business success. 2 NU friends of mine run their own yoga studios. Others have their own small businesses. One is a doctor by day and a lounge singer at night. Good for them! They're happy -- what's better than that?</p>

149

<p>I think the first 2 positions should include Harvard and Princeton. They are the most popular universities in the US.</p>

150

<ol>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>UPenn</li>
<li>Cal Tech</li>
<li>U Chicago</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>John's Hopkins</li>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>WUSTL</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Northwestern</li>
<li>Rice</li>
<li>Emory</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon</li>
<li>UC Berkeley</li>
<li>Vanderbilt</li>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>UVA</li>
<li>Georgetown</li>
<li>UCLA</li>
</ol>

151

<p>It's silly to argue which type of school, public or private, provides a better "experience". Academic quality or other data can be used for comparison, but the individual's opinion of their experience at a school is not representative of any larger conclusion.</p>

152

<p>Everybody seems to be leaving off the academies....??</p>

153

<p>^ Because I wouldn't consider the service academies to be traditional universities...they are definitely in a class by themselves...a top-notch class that is. I would say they are more LAC-like and would place them at the top of the heap in that category.</p>

154

<p>"I emphasized selectivity (SAT 75th percentile) but also took into account the balance of undergraduate to graduate. My thinking is that there is an optimum undergraduate ratio."</p>

<p>That makes no sense whatsoever.</p>

155

<p>Pizzagirl-
The best undergraduate experience is found where undergrads get the most attention but also have the benefits that graduate programs provide...research opportunities, profs on the cutting edge, grad students for review sessions and other support, and so on. 50% graduate students is too many, 10% graduate students is too few.</p>

<p>What you really meant to say was that you couldn't comprehend my meaning.</p>

156

<p>Bravo to PizzaGirl.</p>

<p>The 2008 annual UW alumni award winners are a very diverse group with a wide range of interests:</p>

<p>The 72nd annual Distinguished Alumni Award honorees are:</p>

<pre><code>* Joanne Disch '68: A graduate of UW-Madison's School of Nursing, Disch is the Katherine R. and C. Walton Lillehei Chair in Nursing Leadership at the University of Minnesota, where she directs the Katharine J. Densford International Center for Nursing Leadership. She currently serves as chair of AARP's national board of directors and is a former president of the American Association of Critical Care Nurses.
* Truman Lowe '73: Lowe earned his master of fine arts degree from UW-Madison, and is now a professor of art and a curator at his alma mater. A nationally and internationally acclaimed sculptor, he served as curator of contemporary art in 2000 for the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of the American Indian. His works reflect his Ho-Chunk ancestry and culture, and often capture the beauty and force of moving water.
* Sheldon '51, LLB'53 and Marianne x'54 Lubar: The Lubars have lent their support to higher education in Wisconsin for more than a decade. Sheldon, a graduate of UW-Madison's School of Commerce and Law School, is the founder of the Milwaukee investment firm Lubar & Co. and a former president of the UW System's Board of Regents. Marianne has held prominent roles with the Milwaukee Public Library, the Milwaukee Art Museum and UW-Milwaukee's Golda Meir Library. The couple endowed UW-Milwaukee's Lubar School of Business and UW-Madison's Lubar Institute for the Study of Abrahamic Religions. In 2007, they were contributors to the $85 million Wisconsin Naming Partnership at the Wisconsin School of Business.
* Linnea Smith '81, MD'84: Smith is the founder and medical director of the Yanomono Medical Clinic, located in the remote Amazon jungle of northeastern Peru. A UW-Madison-educated physician who founded the clinic in 1990 following a vacation in the Amazon, she left behind a successful medical practice in Wisconsin to start the clinic for indigenous people who previously had to travel 50 miles by dugout canoe to reach a doctor. Now supported by a nonprofit foundation, the Amazon Medical Project, Smith's work at the clinic has saved thousands of lives.
</code></pre>

<p>The 2008 Distinguished Young Alumni Award honorees are:</p>

<pre><code>* Shihoko Fujiwara '03: Fujiwara is a coordinator with the Polaris Project, a nonprofit organization that combats human trafficking — a form of modern-day slavery. Based in Tokyo, Fujiwara provides food, shelter, medical assistance and other support to human-trafficking survivors, educates law enforcement about how to identify victims, and advocates for improved public policy. She earned her UW-Madison bachelor's degree from the Division of International Studies.
* Stephen Turner '91: Turner is founder and chief technology officer of Pacific Biosciences, a company based in Menlo Park, Calif., that is developing groundbreaking DNA sequencing technology. Turner, who earned his UW-Madison bachelor's degree in applied math, engineering and physics, is the inventor on nine issued U.S. patents and more than 20 published applications.
</code></pre>

157

<p>Pizzagirl-
The best undergraduate experience is found where undergrads get the most attention but also have the benefits that graduate programs provide...research opportunities, profs on the cutting edge, grad students for review sessions and other support, and so on. 50% graduate students is too many, 10% graduate students is too few."</p>

<p>I understood your meaning just fine. I disagree with it. You're saying by definition LAC's can't offer as good of an undergrad experience as universities that have grad students. I completely disagree. It depends on the major, for one. BTW, I attended a top 20 school, got a fabulous education, and didn't have any contact with grad students whatsoever aside from the occasional TA in classes not-my-major. So what? How did I suffer?</p>

158

<p>Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit, because there was nothing mentioned about contact with graduate students.</p>

<p>The point is you want to be at a school that has faculty and grad students doing quality research that you can become a part of. If you have too few graduate students, then research is probably not a strong suit of that department, and there won't be many opportunities for undergraduates. If you have too many graduate students, then there might not be opportunities made available to undergraduates.</p>

159

<p>"Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit, because there was nothing mentioned about contact with graduate students.</p>

<p>The point is you want to be at a school that has faculty and grad students doing quality research that you can become a part of."</p>

<p>If that's relevant to a given student. It's not relevant to all majors / course of study to be "part of research."</p>

160

<p>Since when did research opportunities become a driving force in college selection? For the most part, students are taking basic classes to fulfill major requirements in math, economics, history, poly sci, english, chemistry, etc. I don't really see at the UG level how exposure to cutting edge research and graduate programs is nearly as important as teaching quality of the professors. One needs to obtain a background in the subject matter before being able to do unique research in it.</p>