<p>J2k5,
I have another suggestion. If you don't like your financial safety schools, see if your GC will contact the adcoms at a couple of likely merit-based institutions and state honors program. A deadline is not always a deadline. Your situation can be summarized very quickly, and if your stats are spectacular enough, an adcom might be willing to take another look. This is kind of a longshot, but I can't see what harm it would do.</p>
<p>Arizona State and U Oklahoma</p>
<p>j2k5 -- have the other schools you are waiting on - Amherst & Dartmouth - also been intransigent as far as the non-custodial parent form is concerned? If not, and if you do get in, you may have a pleasant surprise as far as financial aid goes. The divorced parent thing really is probably the most unpredictable of all elements in financial aid calculations. College policies vary widely, and I haven't encountered a single one that will divulge the exact formula they use for weighing in the divorced parent's income. </p>
<p>Has your dad contributed child support over the years? If not, has your mom gone to court to try to enforced the support? A good record of noncompliance might help convince a financial aid office that your situation is legit. </p>
<p>Having said all of the above - I have to add one thing. I am a single, custodial parent and my kids qualify for significant need based aid on my income alone. My ex is cooperative, but perennially "broke" --he can't even keep up with child support payments. No possibility of any real contribution toward college.</p>
<p>I have told my kids that I will beg or borrow if I have to in order to pay their way through the state university, but anything else is a gamble. In order to attend a private college, they need to get enough financial aid to bring the private costs down to substantially the same as the public costs. My son designed his college application strategy around that - he wanted a private LAC, so he applied to a number of very similar LACs that were all very selective, but where his admission was virtually assured - in the hopes of maximizing financial aid. It worked for him -- he didn't go to his first choice, which did not offer him aid -- but another college did offer a generous package. He understood from the outset that the envelope with the word "yes!" printed on the outside was as meaningless as the one from Publisher's Clearinghouse -- the only thing that counted was the paper that said how much the college in question would pay him in grant money to attend. </p>
<p>In other words, we looked at the financial aid award first. No money=no admit.</p>
<p>I have also been accepted to UNC.</p>
<p>Chapel Hill? Are you in-state? Has UNC offered merit aid?</p>
<p>I don't even see that as a "choice" worth debating --UNC is a great school -- you'd be a fool to put yourself into 5 or 6 figure debt in this situation.</p>
<p>I went through a similar situation in that my parents are divorced and I applied to Pomona College which required the noncustodial form. That was SUCH a hassle because my parents have been divorced 12 years and I have no relationship with him. However, I guess Pomona was really understanding about it and extended the deadline knowing I live in CA and he lives in Arizona. Pomona College is ranked, I believe, 4th as an LAC and is also ranked for its financial aid. </p>
<p>I was lucky and received a TREMENDOUS financial aid package, and I am sure there is a school out there that will do the same for you so I say go to a school you can afford and make the most of it. It's not the institution that makes you so best of luck and congratulations.</p>
<p>I'm sort of shocked at the responses from many of the parents who I expected to have said: "you can't put a price on an elite education." Some of whom would usually say that UNC, much less "no school" could ever be in the same league as Williams, HYPS etc.</p>
<p>If it isn't worth it for the kid, then why is it worth it for the many parents who would have to scrimp and not eat out, cancel cable, vacations, movies in theaters, work longer hours or years, be stretched in retirment etc as many other posters proudly detail?</p>
<p>Or is the anwer a faith that if the EFC says $40,000 plus, then there is no problem?</p>
<p>UNC Chapel Hill In-State</p>
<p>It's very affordable if I stay at home, like 4k. I could probably make that myself with a job.</p>
<p>j2k5:
I'm glad to hear that you are in-state at UNC. It IS a very good school. Would Williams or Amherst or Dartmouth be better? In my opinion, very likely, But would they be $120k better? Absolutely not. If you had to take loans and work to pay them off, you would have not time at all to enjoy the resources that Williams, Amherst or Dartmouth have to offer anyway.</p>
<p>"If it isn't worth it for the kid, then why is it worth it for the many parents who would have to scrimp and not eat out, cancel cable, vacations, movies in theaters, work longer hours or years, be stretched in retirment etc as many other posters proudly detail?"</p>
<p>The question is what are the alternative uses of the money, how much of it is theoretically available, and what the value systems of the PARENTS are (which might be quite different than those of the children.) </p>
<p>Many parents would not have to scrimp and not eat out, cancel cable, vacations. movies in theaters, work longer hours or years. They have the luxury of making a relatively "free" decision. Some others would have to do as you say. Then there are others of us (like me) who could sell absolutely everything we own in the world and still not be able to pay for two top LAC educations for the two kids. For a family with incomes placing them in the median of those not receiving need-based aid at top LACs or Ivies, median income is likely pushing $250-$300k - four years at full price is 8-9 months income. For a middle-income family earning $44k/year, it's four years of income. The considerations are likely to be a little different.</p>
<p>If it isn't worth it for the kid, why might it be worth it for the parents? Many parents get terrific enjoyment just from the knowledge that they've given their kids the "best that money can buy", others "the best education that money can buy". Others like to wear a kids' college admission around their necks like a diamond necklace. Still others could care less. </p>
<p>It's what makes a market. I don't see the paradox.</p>
<p>I am going to be a contrarian and say, the extra debt can be worth it if the person who is taking the debt on thinks it is worth it. Of course, we all agree that you can get a wonderful education at UNC!</p>
<p>I agree with both ohio mom & cheers. Keep pestering Williams to reconsider their aid offer-- but also see what merit-aid schools (like the ones Northstarmom mentioned) might still have room for a kid like you. If they can accept athletes prior to the submission of an application (!) they can probably accept you right now.</p>
<p>Also: if you decide to do a gap year, do the following: accept Williams (or whichever school you like best) offer but <em>defer</em> for one year (or even more if they let you). Spend the time working. Meanwhile, check out whether you could do better as an emancipated minor re aid.</p>
<p>Good Luck, and congratualtions on your acceptances. Despite what you say, I bet you are the sort of kid who would have worked just as hard even if states were your only option from the get go. I am so sorry your Dad is not more supportive. It pains me to see kids put through this sort of passive-agressive stuff.</p>
<p>Let us know how this comes out.</p>
<p>I've found an alum who will speak on my behalf and he really wants me to go. Think this might work?</p>
<p>Let us keep our fingers crossed for you!</p>
<p>"If it isn't worth it for the kid, then why is it worth it for the many parents who would have to scrimp and not eat out, cancel cable, vacations, movies in theaters, work longer hours or years, be stretched in retirment etc as many other posters proudly detail?"</p>
<p>There is a big difference between, for instance, taking out a second mortage or forgoing vacations in order to help send a kid to college and starting out one's post college life $100 k in debt.</p>
<p>While some parents may be cutting back to pay for an elite education for their kids, the parents already have amassed some things such as a house, retirement, furniture, insurance, etc. In other words, they have some assets.</p>
<p>For a young person to start out their post college life $100 k in debt doesnt' make sense to me because it would so limit their options. With that kind of debt over their head, it would be very difficult for them to choose to go into a low paying field even if that field was their heart's desire. </p>
<p>They also would be very limited in their options for graduate school. In addition things such as marriage, buying a house, having children, choices of where to live in the country or in the world -- all would be limited by that debt.</p>
<p>Certainly education is important. However, I truly doubt that the only place where the OP can get a good education is a place that costs $100 k a year. For the caliber of student who gains an acceptance to Williams, there are excellent colleges available that would offer merit aid or that would offer a lower cost education.</p>
<p>This reminds me of the Evil Robot story.</p>
<p>In the end, ER fell out of love with Yale--and boy, was he a boy in love with Yale. The love faded when he thought about the cash. Fair enough. That's what made his love affair with Vandy possible. </p>
<p>This student still loves Williams. Loves it. Passionate about the place. Think of the talent and effort and YEARS of hard work he put in to get into the place!</p>
<p>Yet 70% of the parents above suggest he drop the passion for another option? On the basis that it is less expensive? </p>
<p>Drop his passion? Without a big fight? Am I reading CC parents correctly?</p>
<p>I agree that $100k is too much debt but there are other ways to make this happen. It's just money! It's just a deal that needs to be brokered correctly. If he pursues this with all his might, he MAY just get the prize he wants. Wouldn't that be fantastic? He'd never forget the lesson of perseverance .</p>
<p>J--</p>
<p>Yes, it's great that one of the alums will intervene on your behalf. ASk him if he can think of any other strategies. Ask your GC for advice. Ask your principal. Ask any professional adult who loves you.</p>
<p>Have you written to the Dean of Admissions? Maybe you could draft a letter and post it here for comments.</p>
<p>I believe this CAN happen.</p>
<p>Research (Dale & Krueger, 1999) on the effect on later life of attending an "elite" college is quite clear, there is none. Students who have been admitted to elite schools, but chose to go elsewhere are just as successful as those who attend the elite school. As is stated in the study, "The C student from Princeton earns more than the A student from Podunk not mainly because he has the prestige of a Princeton degree, but merely because he is abler. The golden touch is possessed not by the Ivy College, but by its students."</p>
<p>In you are good enough to be accepted to an elite school, you will likely be successful wherever you attend college. </p>
<p>As far income is concerned, occupation is more predictive than where one went to school. Graduate and professional school is where the difference lies for predicting greater income, and I believe about 60% of the students at Harvard Law went to public universities. A cute quote from an article in Atlantic Magazine: "I have noticed that many organizations are well staffed by Ivy graduates but helmed by graduates of other schoolsmaybe the true "Admissions Confidential" is this: Ivy Grads Face Glass Ceiling!"</p>
<p>Also from the Atlantic, " ...connections aren't going to help when it comes time to apply to those supercompetitive law and business schools, at which point one will be up against not only straight-A students from Yale and Amherst but also ferociously smart applicants from "sub-elite" universities that are nonetheless home to supercompetitive graduate-level programs (for instance, the University of Michigan, whose law school, ranked by academics, judges, and lawyers as the seventh best in the country, is one of the places the Amherst and Yale grads will be clawing to get into). And winning a clerkship on the Court of Appeals or an offer from Goldman Sachs is going to depend on having done extraordinarily well in law or business schoolnot on where you spent your undergraduate years."</p>
<p>For a little more insight on the Aims of Education apart from career success see: <a href="http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml</a></p>
<p>The debt aside, J2k5, whatever you decide, you will be fine.</p>
<p>SBmom -- there is no such thing as better financial aid for an "emancipated minor" - you've confused a couple of concepts and are inadvertantly giving bad advice. </p>
<p>An "emancipated minor" is someone under age 18 who has gotten a court order that conferring adult rights and privileges, upon a showing that the person is living independenly and self-supporting. </p>
<p>Most college students are over 18 and are not minors. They do not need to be "emancipated" in order to move out, get their own apartment or get a job. If the student didn't have parents supporting him while he was in high school and is coming out of the foster system, then he may be able to apply for college without consideration of parental income. Or the kid can join the military, and when he gets out he will be considered self-supporting by the college. But the student who has lived with his mom until after graduating from high school can not avoid having parental income considered merely by moving out and supporting himself, unless and until he is 24 years old.</p>
<p>Sorry -that's the way it works - my son is almost 22, has been living on his own and entirely self-supporting since age 20 - honestly he hasn't gotten a dime from me in about 18 months except for small gifts and occasionally being taken out to dinner -- and if he goes back to college within the next 2 years my income will be counted on the FAFSA. </p>
<p>A gap year may be helpful for other reasons, but it won't do anything to improve the financial aid picture.</p>
<p>j2k5, you have 6 weeks to work this out. I'm with Cheers on this one, don't give up Williams without a good fight. The fact that you're an early write indicates they really want you, so make an appeal. maybe ask the admissions director to intercede for you. What exactly did Williams tell you? Is your mom willing to go to bat for you with your dad?</p>
<p>At the same time you have an excellent "worst case" scenario with UNC -- and maybe some better offers yet to come.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"If it isn't worth it for the kid, then why is it worth it for the many parents who would have to scrimp and not eat out, cancel cable, vacations, movies in theaters, work longer hours or years, be stretched in retirment etc as many other posters proudly detail?"
[/quote]
mini and northstarmom hit this one on the head (as usual). My wife and I have a combined income, assets, and access to credit that is nothing like that a recent college grad has (unless their last name is Gates or something) ... so our considering taking on debt is a very different decision than a recent college grad ... and for a new college grad having an entry level job and also having a $2000 a month college loan payment is pretty daunting IMO.</p>
<p>j2k5
If you are accepted to Williams, you surely have outstanding stats. Has UNC offered you the Carolina Scholar award, and are you in their Honors program? And would that put you in an elite subset of UNC?</p>