<p>I'll split the difference: do your damnedest to find a way to do it but without starting out post-college life in debt. Maybe $20K max. Think about it...that's half a year's salary at a better than average starting job outside the tech sector. Otoh, I don't believe one should give up dreams easily, <em>especially</em> when you're young and don't have considerations of family, pre-existing job, bills, etc. to influence your decision. Good luck.</p>
<p>Umm, TheDad; not everyone lives in SF or NY. There are lots of jobs that college grads get that pay 18K or 22K (and that's gross salary, from which the almighty FICA gods get paid...). Lots of kids assume that they can get a good job out of undergrad, live with mom, start paying off those loans asap.... but then reality hits-- mom lives in a place without public transportation (factor in a car... even a junker, that costs $); Mom lives in a place where starting salaries are well below the national norm (median starting salaries are just that... the median); etc.</p>
<p>I am happy to make all kinds of financial and lifestyle sacrifices for my kids education precisely because I have little uncertainty in my future. Sure, I could get hit by a bus.... but I have a house, I own a car, if I lose my job I know I could find a comparable one within 6 months since I live in a large metropolitan area where lots of companies want people who do what I do. I don't think most 22 year olds are in a position to take on staggering debt.... nor do they understand what that debt does to their cash flow, their ability to make choices about careers, etc.</p>
<p>Since merit aid offers have started to come in, adjusting my perspective (as a parent) on the $$$$/value equation, I am going to second blossom on this one - avoid debt if you can, you will be so much more carefree. And lord knows, adult life typically lasts many many years - "so gather ye rosebuds while ye may."</p>
<p>Seriously, if your other options are state schools, you can attend with the idea that "I will wrest the best possible education for myself here." You can take the initiative to get to know professors, assertively pursue scholarships, internships, research opportunities, push yourself with advanced courses, do a double major, request access to graduate seminars. You can polish that lump of coal into a brilliant shiny diamond - ya just gotta wanna!</p>
<p>Blossom, I suggested that $20K be a maximum loan amount for a student to take. I also noted that a job at $40K is better than average for a non-tech job.</p>
<p>Of course, I also suggest that students start planning their financial futures during their first year of college and take off the rose-colored glasses. In particular, go to the career center and start scoping out the hard realities of the live-with-mom scenarios as you suggest.</p>
<p>My life experience has given me more understanding of debt than I would like...it could be described as ambling up by my bootstraps...and I definitely don't think a $100K debt for a Bachelor's degree is a good way to start. I laughed at my D when she squawked that 50 percent of her work-study money was spoken for between cell phone, savings, and other regular expenses...at least she's got the savings habit ingrained.</p>
<p>calmom, I stand corrected, thank you for clarifying.</p>
<p>Please pardon the yelling and the language below.... Sometimes, one just has to vent and say things they apologize for later. So here goes:</p>
<p>THERE ARE EXCELLENT EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES AT GOOD SCHOOLS WHICH - IF YOU HAVE THE STATS - WILL GIVE EXCELLENT MERIT AID TO BRING THE COST OF A COLLEGE DEGREE DOWN TO REASONABLE LEVELS!! ANYONE WHO IGNORES THOSE OPPORTUNITIES TO ATTEND A BETTER "NAME" SCHOOL AND PAY FULL FREIGHT AND TAKE ON AN ENORMOUS DEBT IS NUTS!!!</p>
<p>Thank you for letting me vent. I feel better now. Now I have to apologize for the "nuts" comment: Sorry.</p>
<p>Don't flame me.... I DID apologize.</p>
<p>And I do have to clarify that with the "nuts" statement, I was talking about taking on a large debt. For people who have the savings or the income or the support of parents to make it happen, I have nothing against choosing a premium-brand-name school over the other opportunities. Go for it! But do not graduate with a large student loan debt.</p>
<p>Now I just feel like a Nut....</p>
<p>I'll just add my agreement to those who say that there is a big difference between parents scrimping to pay for their kids' schools, and a young person starting out with 100K debt, and this could possibly make grad school impossible.</p>
<p>For us, even though we do "scrimp", it's not a problem: we have a (very small) house, and we have advanced degrees. We can always find work. What else would we spend it on? My D is a recent college grad. She's making in the low 20,000s doing really hard work. She lives very frugally, but she could not possibly repay a debt like that.</p>
<p>I do understand the OP's wish to get the best education possible. I am totally uninterested in the oft-cited study that it doesn't matter where you go to s chool if you're select-school material--that it doesn't affect income latter on. Who cares? I am not sending my kids to school for them to make a lot of money (I don't! :) ). I want them to have the best educational experience possible, surrounded by good students who care about learning. I went to a school where that wasn't the case, then transfered to one where it was, and I know there's a difference. </p>
<p>But the OP doesn't have to worry about that. His worse case scenario is an excellent school, which I would have been happy to see my kids at.</p>
<p>1sokkermom-</p>
<p>The same goes for all of us: Sometimes you feel like a nut...</p>
<p>But the good news is: ...Sometimes you don't.</p>
<p>Digmedia,</p>
<p>Great minds think alike.</p>
<p>I agree with momrath in that you should appeal with earnest to Williams as you are an Early Write candidate. Someone else suggested that you get in touch with a top LAC that offers merit awards to see if they might bend the rules. If you get them to do that I would be careful not to be to public about it though. They have many recipients of these awards who don't matriculate so you might fit a spot in their class.
I would try Lafayette as their Marquis Scholars Program will give you a 16k head start. I would call them today.</p>
<p>Also try emailing Barkowitz the lurking MIT fin-ais King.
<a href="http://blogs.mit.edu/barkowitz/contact.aspx%5B/url%5D">http://blogs.mit.edu/barkowitz/contact.aspx</a></p>
<p>First of all, I want to say that I agree with Northstarmom who pointed out that we adults have assets and an established income that makes use better prepared to take on debt. I'd also like to point out that as our kids go to college, we are looking forward to a time when we will hopefully experience a large drop in expenses - mainly that after college we won't have to support our kids any more -- so for us, taking on debt is mostly a way of spreading the college expenses out so that some of them can be paid while we still have the same income, but have reduced expenses in other areas. Most of all we have years of experience with money, which includes management of debt -- so we tend to have a very realistic view of what we are doing.</p>
<p>I do want to take issue with something that TheDad said, though the overall context of his post was excellent advice. It was in the "however" part - where he wrote: "Otoh, I don't believe one should give up dreams easily, <em>especially</em> when you're young and don't have considerations of family, pre-existing job, bills, etc. to influence your decision." </p>
<p>It is easy for a young person to confuse the ends with the means in terms of figuring out "dreams". Going to college may be a "dream" -- going to a particular college rarely is, unless that college truly has something that sets it apart from all the others. If finances are an issue, then the dreams need to be tailored in a way so that the means to the end are affordable -- for example, if my dream vacation is to tour Europe, and I am rich - then I might book a first class plane ticket and rooms in 4 star hotels.</p>
<p>That's exactly what the question "is it worth it?" means. The problem is that putting oneself in $100K debt will undercut so many other "dreams" while that money is being paid back. The problem with debt is that you can't really undo it, and 22 year old's end up with dreams that are very different than what they had in mind at age 18. I mean, somewhere around the middle of sophomore year, most college students decide that they are sick of whatever college they are in and start thinking about how desperate they are to be somewhere else (i.e., the "sophomore slump"), which is why so many go abroad junior year. Most are quite happy to be graduating and moving on after 4 years. It just isn't fun to be writing a big check every month to pay for a "dream" that has been reduced to a fading memory, especially if the reality has become a job you hate but can't afford to quit.</p>
<p>Can someone explain to me why it is $100k, if Williams actually costs $170k?</p>
<p>digs: Ranting forgiven, but why get your panties into such a twist?<br>
The student never said he loved Williams becuase it was a name school. </p>
<p>Isn't it possible that he just loves Williams? Do we have to beat him up for falling in love with something expensive?</p>
<p>I fell in love with an expensive architecture school and I got the best advice from the my babysitting bosses, two lawyers who put themselves through school. "Oh, don't worry about the money. You'll figure it out. Go for it." My parents wanted to lynch them.</p>
<p>But I took their advice. I did. I worked. I took out loans. I was an RA. I took a year off. I got it sorted and it WASN'T that hard. I loved the university. I had a great time and I got a great education. I learned how to acquire something that initially appeared too expensive.</p>
<p>I never EVER think about that money now. Never. And I'm going to go give you a wedgy now because you kinda have it coming: $100k is not an overwhelming amount of money in some lives, mine included.</p>
<p>In retrospect, my private uni tuition was a piddling amount of money. I've spent that amount of money on all kinds of things--a hundred times over. </p>
<p>This student has a great back up school in his pocket. Maybe, like ER, he will fall in love with the back-up. But why shout at him for pursuing something he loves? Something worthwhile? </p>
<p>In the meantime, let's give the poor kid some tips on how to make it happen and leave it to him to make the choice. I think he's up to it.</p>
<p>What does "OP" mean?</p>
<p>5% interest rate, $100,000k in loans, 10 year repayment = $12,000 or so per year. That is about HALF of what you will make coming out of school. </p>
<p>The Aries cost-of-living lecture: $30,000/year, about 25% of that goes straight to taxes. (I'm doing this for just outside of Boston, where a Williams grad can likely end up.)<br>
*Down to about $22,000/year. Sounds like a lot?<br>
*Apartment = $500-$600/month, so about $6,500/year. Down to $15,500.<br>
*Car insurance = $1,500 or so per year. Down to $14,000.
*Utilities: cell, electricity, heat, cable, internet (sharing with 2 or 3 other people for the common ones) = $250ish/month, or about $3k/year. Down to $11,000.
*Car payments on a used car or repair bills, plus oil changes and gas = $2k-$3k/year. Down to $8,500.<br>
*You have to eat. Grocery bills = $50/week = $2,500/year. Down to $6,000. </p>
<p>So if you're absolutely frugal with your money - share a place, drive a used car (or if you don't, zipcar for when you need a car and subway/bus fare when you don't will still run into a ton), don't go out to movies - you'll only be able to pay about $5k-$7k/year in debt, maximum. Absolute maximum. </p>
<p>If you stretch payments over 20 years, you have a whole new set of problems. Payments don't drop in half - because of increased interest (compounding over twice the time), they are only about 75% as much. You'll drop over $100k in interest and be in your 40s by the time you are done paying the thing off. Look at your parents: imagine that, only a few years ago, they stopped paying off student loans. Is that what you want?</p>
<p>Is it possible to go to a State for 2 years and then transfer to Williams? Gap year is a good suggestion.</p>
<p>Original Poster</p>
<p>J: </p>
<p>Here's the story of our babysitter. A complete slacker in high school. Loved football. C- average first semester Senior year at an elite school. Overall 2.8 GPA. Okay SATS. Not accepted anywhere. </p>
<p>In May, at the 11th hour, a teacher called one of the schools (Top 50) and begged. They took the slacker on the condition that he attend the pre-college summer school. He did.</p>
<p>The slacker graduated from the Top 50 school with a 3.8 GPA. He was offered a job with a consultant for $50k a year. Within two years he was making $90k. Age 23. </p>
<p>He applied to business schools. He got into a Top 20 business school and graduated with a high GPA. His old consultancy firm offered him a job at $125K a year PLUS they offered to pay off ALL of his student loans, a $100k sweetener.</p>
<p>He turned them down for an offer from a Fortune 100 company, $100k a year or something--to start. It was his dream job. He's 26.</p>
<p>Great story...and it all hinged on that one phone call.</p>
<p>It CAN happen.</p>
<p>Mini, I've been assuming that $100K is the amount the OP figures he needs to borrow - which may be different than the cost needed to pay for college. Presumeably the OP has also factored in his own savings and earning capacity into the equation. Williams doesn't "cost" $170K in any event -- that is a figure that comes from estimating all costs overall, including room & meals. So an enterprising student can save money, and reduce overall costs, by getting a job after freshman year as an RA and reducing reliance on the meal plan in favor of ramen.</p>
<p>Great post, Aries. Maybe you should consider a career as a credit counselor ;)</p>