<p>My friend who graduated from a small private college in our state (not on CC radar) and did MFA work at Pace lives/works in NYC. He told my mom to tell me to make sure my S applies to Uof M because “The UofM people are EVERYWHERE in NY.” As appealing as that is, we already know that UofM is NOT the place for our S for a number of reasons. We are not working from a list of ‘top schools’, but from a list of ‘right schools.’ </p>
<p>@Flossy brings up another point. Would the 5 people I listed from my previous post been successful and received the notoriety they have without going to the mentioned programs, or, any program?</p>
<p>How valid is this question? “If even going to school is not a determining factor or indicator of future success and if it’s all kind-of a crap-shoot anyway, why go at all?”</p>
<p>I’m going to say what everyone else has basically already said.
Just because you attend one of the schools on the “Top 10” list, that doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed to be successful.
If you attend a school not on the “Top 10” list, that doesn’t mean you won’t be successful.
There’s lots of great schools out there. Training is, of course, very important. But in the end it comes down to the individual. </p>
<p>Doesn’t matter about top schools if you cannot get in (the odds are so tough even for the most talented kids) or if you cannot afford it. So focus on a wide range of schools that fit your family’s bill! </p>
<p>Interestingly, right now the most successful NYC working non-star MT kid my oldest D knows is from a state school. Yes, there are some programs whose reputation will probably increase your odds of early success. But, it’s about 3, 5 tops. And, even then there are no guarantees.</p>
<p>After watching our grads for the past years going off to schools such as CCM, CMU, FSU, OU, Michigan as well as Coastal, Wright, Webster and a slew of others the common factor we have seen is what the student does with the time they have at the school. In the end we believe it is about the RIGHT fit and not just the named school. We just had some of our former students graduate this past year from CCM, FSU and a state school. All are working currently and having a great start out of college. We also know of others that just graduated from CMU and are not working. We have another former student who is a state school in Alabama and as a Junior has already had one off-broadway credit. The problem is there is no true success formula and that is the hardest part of what these kids do. I have a friend who graduated from a non-audition state program from Georgia that just currently finished Annie’s last run on Broadway. He is already on the National Tour of Joseph. If there is any common factor I see with the kids graduating and not being able to get work quickly are those who are burdened with high debt and have to get saved up to either go to Chicago or New York or have to take any kind of work to be there that it gets in their way with auditioning. </p>
<p>All of these things also need to be weighed out. The “top” schools are top for a reason, but there are some really awesome lesser known programs where the kids are coming out well trained and very happy. The goal should be highest possible training AND a place where they can be for four years with as little money as possible. It is a HUGE feat and no small miracle to get it all together. 
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<p>That’s the problem with looking at anecdotal instances. Norbert, Jerry and Hunter haven’t been in college for decades. They’re old! If you’re interested in success of grads at any school, look at recent information on where grads have been able to book work.</p>
<p>And again, see my earlier post about what success really looks like. Some would argue that only graduates with Broadway billing equals success when it comes to an MT program. But what about kids who go right to LA for TV work? Or someone who gets a great commission to write a new musical? Or who get a couple of long contracts on a Disney cruise and get to travel the world? Or someone who starts a nonprofit to teach musical theatre to at-risk kids? Or someone who buys a summerstock theatre to run as the artistic director? See what I mean about going around and around here? I might also add, that for some of our kids, success might mean studying theatre and learning so much and loving it more than anything, but then taking a break and having a family. And for some of our kids, it will be a crazy, winding path of a little of this and a little of that – with survival jobs along the way. It’s all good. I guess most of all, I don’t want the beautifully talented young people who don’t get into the big name schools of their dreams for whatever reason because of the infinitesimal odds to feel like they’re a failure at the dawning of their college years – only a handful of kids get those slots really. Bring your amazing light to YOUR school and SHINE!</p>
<p>MTTwinsinCA that was awesome!!! Yes, Yes, Yes!! When I have parents ask me if their kids can really do this business the first thing I ask is what is your definition of success. This is the one of the most important questions for parents and kids to answer. It is interesting that if our kids go to college for Business we don’t state that the only way we will see them as successful is if they get a high ranking job at a Fortune 100 business right off the start. BUT somehow with this business it seems to be what all parents define ultimate success for their student.</p>
<p>There are so many wonderful ways our students can be successful in this business, not to mention that they will be adults pursuing their PASSION. The top school does not define your student’s talent. Again, loved what you said MTTwinsinCA!!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the “top” schools do open doors in several ways that the not-so-top schools don’t. For example, more and better-connected agents go to the top schools’ showcases; attending a top school can get you in the door to an audition that a not-so-top school doesn’t; the school’s “mafia” is probably better at the top schools b/c there are more kids working, etc. Yes, yes, yes, of course what you DO in the audition room matters…but we would be deluding ourselves if we didn’t think there were advantages to going to top schools. Just look at great summer theaters (equity theaters) like the Muny. They sure do love their UMich kids. Is it b/c the UMich kids are better than the other kids? Nope. It’s b/c they go to UMich. It’s an elephant in the room and I sure do understand why no one is talking about it. But there probably isn’t one of you on this forum who hasn’t heard or thought that UMich, CMU and CCM are the holy trinity of MT schools. Do they do deserve the reputation? I honestly don’t know. Of course they are great schools, but are they BETTER than NYU/OCU/Ithaca/BoCo/Penn State, etc.? I doubt it. Do the kids who go there have advantages that the other schools don’t? Absolutely. It’s the harsh reality of this very harsh business. A good analogy is the Ivy Leagues. Are Harvard/Princeton/Yale better than Middlebury/Bowdoin/Hamilton? I doubt it. But will the Ivy Leagues open doors for applicants that these other schools don’t? Yup. Welcome to life. </p>
<p>Totally agree with Veritas. </p>
<p>My uncle is on faculty at a well known engineering school. We asked him several years ago (for another child) whether he thought reputation of school was important, or would it be just as good for a student to attend a very good state school. His reply was “The top schools (MIT, GaTech, CalTech, etc.) will get you in the door, and maybe even get you your first job, but they won’t keep that job for you and won’t get you subsequent jobs. You have to earn that with your own reputation.” I think MT is very similar, but I think the school reputation continues to get you in the door a bit longer.</p>
<p>MTTwinsinCA I would like to thank you for that wonderful and eloquent post. My daughter and I have had this conversation and I told her that if her only measure of success for pursuing this business was to perform on Broadway that perhaps she needed to reevaluate. My question to her was is the measure of success making a career doing the thing you love best or is your measure of success only doing that in one particular and very well known forum? It really made her stop and think and realize that while Broadway might be the pinnacle and of course she would dream of being there, perhaps the reality is that singing, performing and surrounding herself in the world of performing arts, music and theatre is what really makes her happy, regardless of the venue. This is what she loves. For many of these kids it’s a calling as much as medicine or religion my be for other kids. Of course I would love her to go to a top school, just like any parent would. My son wants to be a lawyer. I would love for him to go to Harvard. But would I ever think that if he can’t go to Harvard he won’t have the opportunity to have success in his field? Never. Obviously the entertainment industry is a narrower career path to some extent, but the variety of options and paths are vast if you open up to all the different opportunities beyond just one small and extremely competitive niche. Would my daughter love to go to UMich, CCM, CMU or NYU? Absolutely and no doubt when the time comes she will throw her hat in the ring and see what happens. I mean it would be folly not to even try. But her intent to pursue this path does not rest with a particular school or program. I am confident she will find her place.</p>
<p>After seeing a couple threads of this nature, and practicing great restraint, I thought I might finally give in and join the conversation. First, data based on Playbill statements can be helpful, as long as the performer mentions their training. You might ask “why wouldn’t someone mention their training, especially in the days of BFAs?” I don’t know the answer to the question, but some don’t. Also, some schools (with excellent training) are sorely lacking in promoting or acknowledging the success of their alumni, even on their own websites. In this day and age of high tuitions for a grueling training program, I find this unacceptable. But, it still happens. So I mention this because doing your own homework on the “right program” for a student requires digging well below the surface. Beyond this, our personal experience of three kids educated in theatre has come to a point to show some evidence finally after our oldest will have been graduated from school 4 years ago this spring. With equal talent and equal training combined, it appears that networking and connections are usually the dealbreakers towards success in the sense of being employed as a performer. We agree that the better known schools usually provide better networking and connections. But, that being said, performing the way you need to, using the tools of that great training, get you the gig. Connections and networking seem to help get you the audition. Talent, training, and ability get you the gig. Our oldest comes home in a month or so from doing an extremely well paying cruise (now debt free - yes!) and will move to NYC with some friends if all goes as planned. He’s done several regional theatre gigs, a national tour, and a cruise and seen all kinds of talent among his castmates from varied training backgrounds. The overall opinion seems to be the talent of the performer and the work ethic and use of their training translates to their success, not what school they attended. As mentioned in other posts, it is significant to remember finances, academics, cultural differences, etc usually define where a student applies in the first place. Then, yes, the amount of debt incurred from that training/education will sometimes define the auditions someone attends and, in turn, the gigs they book, and so on and so on. Anyway, sorry to be so longwinded, but we feel the most critical issue if pursuing college training or something comparable for theatre, is to apply to programs where you feel you can be acknowledged for the talents you already have, be challenged to grow and develop into the best artist you feel you can be, and have a fulfilling four years doing so, without crippling debt. I know some folks won’t agree with what I’ve written, this is just our family’s opinion noted to the original post. Oh, and @MTTwinsinCA, “Let Your Light Shine!” has been the motto of our household since day 1! </p>
<p>I guess I’m just trying to be practical. We have a lot of kids in our family and not a lot of money. We went all-in with our eldest son in MT, only after multiple (and I mean multiple) assessments from “those in the know” that he had the talent and potential to make it. We were on the fence with the “just move to New York and make it happen” philosophy. It didn’t work for me as a musician when I was his age. So we looked at the “live your dream” scenario and the “don’t be homeless” scenario and our son picked the school specifically for the school-to-work reputation.</p>
<p>I was really surprised at all the push-back on CC against something that, to me, seemed pretty obvious. Some schools have a reputation of their graduates working at a pretty high level. That reputation is backed-up by numerical facts. That makes no statement against any individual performer of anyone’s “dreams.” Any cast list you look at you’ll see an example of someone who went to “Northern Appalachian Tech” and is on a tour in the ensemble.</p>
<p>I have an 8th grader dead-set on following in his big brother’s footsteps, and in 4 or 5 years when we make the next determination what to do, and there is a new “top school” that seems to be getting their graduates “in the room”, that school will be on our list.</p>
<p>A couple of those schools are on almost everyone’s list, for good reason. But they don’t all get in so…push back.</p>
<p>ManVan, I respect your trying to analyze this, but the problem with analyses like these is that they’re often too simplistic. For instance, you claim Norbert Leo Butz. And he did go to Webster. But he also got his MFA from the very prestigious Alabama Shakes and that’s actually what allowed him to transition up to B’way. THere are countless examples of actors whose schools ‘claim’ them as credit but it is very unclear whether the school was critical in their success. Many actors spend a few months or a year at a program, yet the program claims them. Others were already professional before going in and the top program recruited them so they could then claim them. To use one example, Haley Joel Osment went to NYU Tisch. How responsible is Tisch for his career now? Can we compare his experience to a regular kid who goes to Tisch? Maybe. Maybe not. In other words, cause and effect are far far less clear than, say, the NFL. </p>
<p>Also, as people have discussed, there are just so many ways to measure success in acting. I myself would say success is when you can live off your art with a steady paycheck for at least 5 years. That could be on stage, on film, in commercials, voice over, etc. Just measuring whether someone lands on B’way once skews the results greatly. Doing so also risks that colleges feel pressured to recruit just so they can say, 'We have so and so percentage on B’way." It is honestly not that hard, as a college, to groom people to have a high probability to land on B’way once or twice as ensemble. You groom triple threats and have strong connections. And of course that’s great. The problem though is if you are trained mostly or only for this–ensemble is usually very young and only a certain type of look/height/weight. Your lifespan as ensemble is not long. </p>
<p>I feel a better measure would be “what percentage of grads are working in some capacity in the theatre/film world for their full time professional job for over 5 years?” It’s not easy to find these stats, although you can sort of eyeball them by looking at alum bios on their website. </p>
<p>I completely agree that you can find success in any path, including not going to college at all. But I also agree that you do want to look at overall stats to maximize your chances. However, ultimately, it should be about fit. No matter how prestigious the college, if you are unhappy and can’t grow for whatever reason, it is a bad college for you. And no matter how lower ranked, if you connect with people there and can grow, it is a good college for you. I think the biggest thing is fit and whether the college is a match for you, prestige or not. </p>
<p>Two of my D’s coaches have had extremely successful careers, performed on Broadway, and done multiple national tours. One went to AMDA (gasp) 15 yrs ago and the other left home at 18 to move to NYC and never went to college. They have both told us, in no uncertain terms, that at the end of the day, when you’re standing on the stage for a Broadway audition, “no one gives a flying *#$! where you went to school.”</p>
<p>That is very true, DoReMiMom–but it’s getting a chance to have the audition in the first place that is where the school might matter. Getting the agent, forging connections with casting directors, and so on.</p>
<p>Connections in general are the key, whether a person goes to the top school or not. I see kids getting out there based on connections they made BEFORE they even went to college. I think that is why some of the summer programs before they go to college or while in their early college years can make a difference. BDF and TPAP and others offer opportunity not to just perform but get to work with and for the agents but other industry people who are currently casting, directing or writing shows. This not only exposes the kids to the industry, but allows the “movers and shakers” to learn first hand the talent AND work ethic of the upcoming generation. I think there is a balance and what that balance is depends on each individual case. We made sure we had some of the “top schools” on our list, but we have limited money and D is a petite white girl (which I might say are a dime a dozen in this field). She is extremely talented and a triple threat, but there are tons of “her” out there. For us it is a numbers game pure and simple. We have done our part to get her training, prepare her package and the rest is just out of our hands. We are okay with that. I see parents starting to stress about getting in to CCM, CMU, Julliard, etc as early as 9th grade. Others tell their students at the start of the audition process that basically if their child can’t get in those schools, they must not be talented enough to make it and won’t let them go into the field UNLESS they get into one of the schools.</p>
<p>These top schools are top because they are great at what they do, but getting kids and families stressed out because they can’t afford it or aren’t able to get in is what I hate to see. I think that is why some of us are trying to set a balance out and show that there are other options and not trying to say going a different way is better. I think given the chance all of us would LOVE for our child to go to these institutions. </p>
<p>connections can only get you so far. when it comes down to the casting only the best will get the part
regardless of where they went to school</p>