<p>Well, no not really, neuroticstagedad. Being the best is not usually what gets people jobs in show business or anywhere else for that matter. Connections do count for quite a bit. Especially at the start of a career. And, there really is no shortage of talent.</p>
<p>One of my daughter’s coaches was auditioning for a national tour of Grease. He said they lined up about 50-60 of the boys and the Director walked down the line pointing and saying “yes, yes, no, no, no , yes” without looking at a resume or having them even dance or sing. They were casting by type. I’m with you @neuroticstagedad and I truly believe it comes down to talent and type. </p>
<p>This business is such a crap shoot. I think the faculty in the audition room know within the first minute if your what
they are looking for. Most kids with some talent can pick the right songs and monologues to give a good performance. I think they are looking for a particular type or look. Maybe someone with that “it” factor or when they walk in the room that exceptional stage presence . I know of a case at unifieds where the same audition material was used for multiple schools. Two schools offered admission on the spot. While other schools send rejection letters within one week. Could the quality of the auditions have varied that much from school to school? First impressions are very important. </p>
<p>Well @neuroticstagedad, did you get the answer you were looking for? A simple question has turned into a brilliant and insightful thread. After this six month long stressful search procedure I feel inspired by the comments in this thread.</p>
<p>Top 10 lists have their purpose, and it is possibly true that the schools on such lists provide the best training and better initial post-graduation opportunities than schools not on the list. The problem that I have with such lists is that they imply that the programs at other schools are less effective and therefore less desirable. Do we then extrapolate that assumption and say that if my kid can’t get into a top ten MT school they shouldn’t even attempt a career in MT? We all know that that’s not true.</p>
<p>We honestly wrestled with this when our D started her college search six months ago. The long odds of her getting into any program really freaked us out. She actually applied to a total of 26 schools. I took a bit of flak on the CC boards for this, and most posters felt that applying for 12 schools would be enough. I just wasn’t willing to take the chance that NO schools would make her an offer. I saw this season as her one opportunity to get into a program - waiting a year was not an option. We paid no attention to things like fit, location, and cost. Getting her a spot was all that mattered.</p>
<p>Now we are at the end of the audition season and by early March she will have auditioned for 20 schools. Fortunately, 15 of them were at Chicago Unifieds, 2 were within driving distance, and only 3 required plane rides. Only 5 of these schools show up on any Top Ten lists anywhere.</p>
<p>Here’s what we learned for our efforts. There is such a thing as “fit”, and it means a lot to our D. </p>
<p>Some examples: We toured UCF during vacation last summer and learned that D did not want to go to a school with 65,000 students, even if the MT program is excellent. During Unifieds our D felt that certain Top Ten schools didn’t feel right for one reason or another. One of the Top Ten auditors was so rude that she said even if they made her an offer she would turn it down. D has also learned that she would rather go to school in a town of 50,000 residents than 5,000.</p>
<p>Fit also applies to our budget. Our goal is to get her through college with little or no debt. Right off the bat you can eliminate most of the Top Ten schools. Our D did receive a $20,000 scholarship from one of the schools, but their sticker price is well over $50,000. What good is it to graduate from Prestigious U if you have $50,000-100,000 in debt to go with your diploma? No musical theatre career will support the payments. </p>
<p>We are still confident that in the end she will receive offers from a handful of schools, 2 or 3 of which might be perfect fits all-around. We hope that it’s a perfect blend of the best training, college experience, connections, and financial value. </p>
<p>We have watched our D grow throughout this experience, and we are very proud of her. We admire all of your kids as well. We have met so many nice kids and parents in our travels. A career in the arts is one of the few that people pursue out of love and passion. I went to business school, but I can’t say that I love accounting. Our kids all love the theatre, and that means something. </p>
<p>One last thing about the ultimate dream of ending up on Broadway. I’m not sure that it’s the pinnacle of an MT career anymore. Now it seems that the shows themselves are the stars, and the performers are merely replaceable cogs in the machine. There are so many other great opportunities in MT outside of Broadway that are more rewarding, pay better, and offer better working conditions. Everyone dreaming of Broadway should read the book “Making it on Broadway” by David Wienir and Jodie Langel. It’s a collection of amusing, inspiring, depressing, and insightful stories from working actors about their Broadway experiences.</p>
<p>Sorry this is so long. Such an interesting subject for our narrow little world. </p>
<p>Neuroticstagedad, this business is a crap shoot and all we can do is be as prepared as we can. College Auditions and professional auditions are two separate beasts. Just like DoreMiMom said about her D’s coach’s experience with the national tour of Grease, my D went to an audition for a regional tour, the costumes were already made and you had to be a certain height and weight period. Didn’t matter what the talent to begin with they measured you before you sang and only those with the correct sizing were allowed to audition. In another instance it was different: one of our teachers had an audition where there were 2 spots in a dance ensemble available. When she arrived there were three of them there…when the choreographer walked in it was obvious 2 of the others knew the choreographer, guess who got the job. In the end there are SOOOOOOO many things that are considered. </p>
<p>Some of the colleges are casting their classes, some have a different formula. That is why those who coach college auditions for a living get the kids to audition for so many colleges. There are variables you can control but so many you can’t. That is why I believe the conversation about “top colleges” is an important one for people to understand that top colleges are NOT the ONLY way to become successful. They might give you a leg up but they are NOT the only way and when your student doesn’t get into one it isn’t the end to their dream.</p>
<p>My D used pretty much the same material in all 15 of her auditions. Within 1 hour at Unifieds she auditioned for 2 schools, one she was offered on the spot the other she was denied within 1 week. 2 of her studio friends auditioned at the same time with the school who rejected her (one was before her and one was after) both of them were her same hair color, weight, vocal range, and talent was very equal (all same type) both were placed on the wait list for the school. Another student I know was rejected from a mid-range school but was selected for 2 top schools. In the end we have to help them understand they are enough and they offer something unique whether the top programs make an offer or not. </p>
<p>In the end I think the reality is that each viewpoint offered here has value and merits being considered when a parent is trying to decide which schools their particular student is going to audition and which program a student chooses to attend.</p>
<p>Let’s face it, people are not hired in <em>any</em> job entirely based on talent; they could be very talented but work poorly with their colleagues; they could be very talented but take directions poorly; they could be very talented but be too old; they could be very talented but always show up late, or be a diva, and so on. And in some situations - they are the boss’s son, they are the son of a well known person, etc - they are hired not based on talent at all. This is true in acting as well. Casting is certainly based on talent usually. Sometimes it’s not. It’s also based on looks, type, height, how you interact with other people on stage, chemistry, your own professionalism, your reputation, and yes, your connections. If a casting director knows you from an internship and knows you’re reliable, you are far more likely to get your foot in the door than a person he doesn’t know at all. Some people are just off-the-charts, one-in-a-million talented when they are young. But most people are not precociously off-the-charts. Many many highly gifted actors were completely passed over early on. The <em>only</em> reason they are successful today is perseverance and establishing what connections they could. So back to the question, yes, it matters what college you go to, but it matters more what you do with the college you go to. You can go to a ‘low ranked’ college, but land a top internship, forge your connections that way. Or be mentored by an exceptional person on the faculty there. You could go to a top ranked college and it is a miserable experience for you, since it’s not a fit. So it matters, but again, what matters most is fit and what you do with your experience.</p>
<p>
Our D went into college audition season with a lot of firsthand knowledge about all of the above-named MT programs, yet NONE of the schools listed on the Top Ten list in this thread made it to her top 3 programs. She had formed very distinct impressions of what she wanted from college (VERY strong academics, ability to double major, traditional campus experience, very strong straight theatre training in addition to MT, integration with all theatre disciplines, etc.), and none of the schools on the Top Ten list offered it all. </p>
<p>She’s an MT junior now, and what I have seen of her friends who have graduated is absolutely reinforcing an impression I had before she started – that you can pretty much pick out the kids who will fast-track to Broadway no matter where they go to school. As a rule, they all have amazing voices, usually apparent from the very youngest YouTube footage you can find. They are, as a rule, gorgeous. If they are female, they are also usually very well connected. Did their colleges provide much of that? Nope.</p>
<p>I do think where you spend 4 years of college can have a huge impact on your life, but choosing from a top ten list based on the past 2 years of Playbill info may not be the wisest way to get where YOU want to go.</p>
<p>“Do we then extrapolate that assumption and say that if my kid can’t get into a top ten MT school they shouldn’t even attempt a career in MT? We all know that that’s not true.”</p>
<p>Cheeseheadmike. Don’t assume that everyone thinks like you. Since my daughter was 6 she has dreamed of having a performance career in musical theatre. As she’s grown she’s come to learn how low the odds are of making it, and that’s driven her to work hard as she can at it. Even then, her feeling was that if she could not get into a Top 10 MT school she would pursue a different degree in college. Her Mom and I couldn’t be more proud of her approach. Not an approach for everyone, but our family philosophy is that a happy, fulfilling life requires a balance of idealism and pragmatism (and I think a good deal of the advice on this board is too idealistic, so my “mission” is to add some pragmatism).</p>
<p>I agree with most threads that getting a career requires luck (and perseverance if it takes a while to get a little luck). However, it is certainly not a crapshoot (i.e. random), because there a things that determine your odds, which I think can be binned in 3 areas: talent, training and connections. My “Best Schools Based on Broadway Alumni” post discussed school success in similar terms, recruiting (prestige and eye for talent), training and connections. If anything, I think training is the least important of the three. If one gets accepted to a top school then I believe their chances of having a successful career are higher because an impartial panel of professionals deemed that they had a lot of talent. If they attend a top school they are likely getting better training (could be debated) and will likely have better connections (where connections includes “credibility”, or get in the door factor). </p>
<p>There are no right or wrong answers here, and I agree with NAtlantaStudio that every viewpoint adds value – I just don’t like presumptive statements. There is also no perfect Top 10 list (especially since by any measure 11, 12 , 13 could be as good or better than 8, 9, 10, etc.), but that doesn’t mean that all top school lists are worthless, as long as they have a reasonable basis for their construction. I think I dug deep enough into the data (by googleing every show, school and actors name individually) to get a reasonable set of “Top Lists”.</p>
<p>MomCares - thanks for all you do for this forum. There is nothing to disagree with in your post, especially the “everyone is not looking for the same thing” aspect. To me, your second paragraph totally confirms my family’s thinking. First, coming from outside the theatre world, how does one get a truly impartial vote that they might have the voice, look, etc - our thinking was an acceptance to a top school (and hopefully more than one). How does one get the best connections - again, our thinking was a top school. How does one determine the top schools? That requires a ton of work and/or insight (and of course is highly personalized). In terms of performing on Broadway I think my list (which is based on much more than just playbill) is the best I’ve seen, but it could of course be better.</p>
<p>After an offline discussion with a friend I realized I should add a couple caveats to my post above. Since the discussion was on cc, the folks I’m primarily thinking about were not child actors who needed parents to facilitate their Broadway moves. I’m primarily thinking of MTs who went to Broadway rapidly post-college. Child actors are special cases, with parents who think being a child actor is good for the kids AND who are able/willing to put their lives on hold to support their kids’ aspirations, making them a small subset of the overall actor population and not especially relevant to this discussion about which colleges help actors be successful. We also know older actors who finally landed a stint on Broadway after long regional theatre careers, but again their choice of colleges played a smaller role in getting to Broadway than their subsequent work and training did. </p>
<p>
Our D looked for feedback about her potential marketability through local coaches, regional theatres, local, regional and national competitions (Thespians, YoungArts, NATS, Solo & Ensemble, etc.) and auditions for summer programs. Since she knew what she wanted from college she applied ED to her top choice and cancelled all auditions once she was admitted, and she knows many other MTs who chose the same course of action (most often for ED at Northwestern and EA at Yale).</p>
<p>As I’ve said, our D certainly aspires to a shot at Broadway, yet none of the Top Ten school listed above were in her top 3 list (though of course many were on her top 10 list), or high on the lists of many of her very talented friends, so to each their own. I just want to reinforce the idea that if what your child wants is not on that list (or any other list) it does not mean they are making a poor choice.</p>
<p>
And, while I hate to say it, a fourth thing may belong on this list; genetics. Not all kids are destined to have long dancer legs, square jaws, sharp cheekbones, svelte bodies, be “ethnically ambiguous” or whatever other physical characteristics are in demand this season. </p>
<p>In the long run, only those with perseverance, great personalities, a sense of humor, simple needs and a strong work ethic are likely to build lasting and happy careers in theatre NO MATTER WHERE THEY GO TO COLLEGE, which in the final analysis is what I guess most of our kids hope for.</p>
<p>My D’s had a top 10 list but for the life of me I cannot imagine making a top 25 list without including a random bunch of schools that the student would not be particularly happy to attend. We do know a very talented girl who flew all over the country for weeks attending 23 auditions. She got into 3 programs and chose the one in state where she will graduate next year. Kind of a waste.</p>
<p>The any BFA will do strategy just baffles me, but to each his own. The top schools only plus a safety you like is another way we have seen several kids approach this dilemma but to be honest only the boy is not at his safety right now. He got into 2 out of 3 before deciding to go straight to work and skip the whole school thing altogether and is being paid to perform although it’s a long way from Broadway.</p>
<p>Sigh. Good luck, everyone.</p>
<p>From MomCares “Only those with perseverance, great personalities, a sense of humor, simple needs and a strong work ethic are likely to build lasting and happy careers in theatre.” </p>
<p>Truly, this is the most wisdom I’ve ever seen packed into a single statement regarding theatre, and better yet it’s pragmatic!! If by 17 years-old your kid can’t at least demonstrate the potential to meet the above, then I’d go so far to say you are a bad parent if you don’t try to dissuade them from pursuing a theatre dream. Only then can you even start to worry if they meet all of the other criteria we’ve been talking about (note: I had lumped physical genetics into talent, but it probably does merit a full weighting on its own for an MT performance career). </p>
<p>On the marketability feedback issue, your method is sound (although some locations have much more opportunity than others, and unbiased feedback might be hard to get from coaches), but we got in the game way too late. I deserve blame for our ignorance - I mistakenly figured that appearing highly talented in a small community didn’t mean much (perhaps because my boys would usually win our local chess championships, but they would get crushed when they’d play in national tournaments).</p>
<p>Finally, how do you do the blue highlight?</p>
<p>A very interesting discussion that is so relevant to us right now…
We are not US citizens so have to pay international fees. My D is a hard worker and was very lucky to get PHENOMENAL grades that have secured her some wonderful scholarship money from a good school. BUT, if she gets into that school artistically, but gets into another much more expensive school with no money, but that fits her well, she is going to fight her hardest to go to the more expensive one. She works 3 jobs at the moment and will work on campus to help us out if needed. This expensive school is VERY expensive and in the holy grail of schools, but that isn’t why she is applying- she knows it is a perfect fit for her. We have our doubts finance-wise… </p>
<p>However, I think considering how your daughter will fit into the program is incredibly important since as people have reiterated, THAT is what will help a student be successful and truly enjoy themselves. They may work hard but if the school is not a right fit for them it may be difficult for them to fit the ‘mold’ and enjoy themselves - eg schools with cut programs, or schools that want to produce one type of performer rather than unique individuals. We talked with an actress who went to a very reputable school. My D is in love with that school but the actress told my D that she hadn’t enjoyed her experience at all because she had wanted to immerse herself in acting, whereas the school had pushed her to develop her voice over every other discipline. Because she was a hard worker, the actress placed an exorbitant amount of pressure on herself to be a better singer and ended up very unhappy for the next 3 years. She realized acting was her passion shortly after and became a straight actor upon graduation. However, she seriously told my D and her friends to consider what they want from their educations and college programs since she emphasized that that could heavily influence their experiences, which we all know!</p>
<p>Like @cheeseheadmike, we had similar experienced at Chi Unifieds. 2 schools in the Top 10 that my D auditioned at fell off my D’s list because of the way they treated auditionees. One school talked about only wanting triple threats and my D did not feel welcomed there. She actually felt discriminated against, objectified and belittled. The other school was lovely but not right for her; it offered a ‘cut program’ offered under the disguise of a friendlier term, but my D knew immediately that a conservatory style program with a cut would not suit her learning style. @MomCares, my D’s profile actually fits your D’s pretty much exactly. Scary because some of the things you wrote are the exact wordings my D used when explaining to me what she wants!</p>
<p>although money is an incredibly important factor my D believes that this is an investment in her life. If a school is a perfect fit but more expensive, but another one is not a perfect fit but comes with money, I would consider very carefully whether your child thinks he or she would thrive in that program. Money is, of course, a huge factor and we are all too familiar with feeling like this is all too expensive, but my D has convinced us that an education she enjoys and truly profits from is far more important than one that is cheaper. As parents, cost is probably our biggest factor, however, we also know this is an incredibly daunting and difficult career path, and want our D to have a college experience that will make her feel secure and confident in her talents.</p>
<p>Hope some of this makes sense. I could talk for days…</p>
<p>About the blue-boxed quotes… [ quote] text text text blah blah blah [ /quote]… remove the space after the [.</p>
<p>
I think Connections mentioned earlier that several schools with great stats for recent grads on Broadway are admitting and training students with ensemble potential. I think there is much truth in that, particularly at schools with heavy emphasis on admitting triple threats. </p>
<p>Some kids will never be dance ensemble material, but they may someday be stars. Look at the senior showcase photos from top schools and ask yourself if they would have admitted Carol Channing, Ethel Merman, Barbara Streisand, Jennifer Hudson or Liza Minnelli, and the honest answer will usually be “no”. Not to say the top schools haven’t got some terrific grads, but overall it is true that Wonder bread sells well, yet in the end it’s not that interesting.</p>
<p>Lol, Liza Minnelli, yes. Her mother was Judy Garland! 
</p>
<p>But seriously, in her day, she was a true triple threat. </p>
<p>Wow, this thread is so full of insight, thought provoking, and contains way more “knowledge” than can ever be found on ANY list or school website. The many voices here are expressing the hopes, fears, and dilemmas our family has faced in this process. Our S started “training” for this when he was 10 - much like the Olympic athletes we’ve been watching this week. I started “haunting” CC about two years ago, looking for wisdom from those who have “gone before”. @MTpragmatist, I printed off your lists last year, added them to my “research” file and used them as a jumping-off point for our “list” this year. I’ve added in the “arguments” for that thread and so many others. I feel my S’s list is both “reaching for the stars” AND pragmatic.</p>
<p>It’s scary - sometimes to the point of sleepless nights - to think of the many “waves” of talented MT hopefuls that have surged ahead of our kids, and those that will continue to rush in after. I agree with SO many of the postings here, and believe that success for our kids as a mixture of what is “given” to them in their training - or job experience - and what they are born with - genetics, or whatever - and what they are willing to DO to reach “success”, however they define it. John Rubinstein in the Opening Thoughts of Making it On Broadway, has an image of the path to “Broadway” being like walking uphill in an avalanche - only those who have no other way to go should even consider it. Being able to persevering through that avalanche is, IMHO, what ultimately will make the difference. While this grueling process of getting into the “right” program CAN be critical, this is only a “qualifier”. The marathon will take 5, 10, maybe 15 years to run. And there is no “finish line”, just the next audition - or perhaps change in course.</p>
<p>One factor that I am not hearing about in this very compelling thread (I’m checking back hourly) is “creativity”. During our audition visits, we heard comments from faculty - and students - at both WSU and IU (not on the “lists”) about what will ultimately make a difference for those who succeed will be between those who can “create” their own work, and those who are “merely” actors. (A “light” aside: how many actors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Only one, but they have to wait to be given the lightbulb.) Will our kids have what it takes to create “theatre” where perhaps it has never existed before, in a place where it “can’t be done”, or “no one’s ever done it that way before”? A young lady guiding one of our tours said she came into the program thinking of herself as a “performer”, but in her two years there, the faculty had helped her see that she is an “artist”, a creator who is not limited to only being able to “perform” what someone else has written, in a way that someone else is directing, because of what someone else wanted to produce.</p>
<p>There are 'waves" of MT hopefuls crashing up onto the MT program audition scene every year (with more programs being added yearly), and a somewhat lesser “river” of MT “professionals” pouring out the other end. Year, after year, after year. Who will be creating and producing the “shows” that all these highly skilled performers will be vying for? How many times can you “revive” Oklahoma or Pippin (great as they are) and still sell enough tickets to pay the bills? Perhaps, programs that push for growth outside of a student’s highly skilled, trained “box” should be at the top of the list. Or ones that encourage experimentation and risk-taking in a safe, supportive environment. It is daunting - and exciting - to think that our kids may really need to be looking beyond the “triple threat”. As if that isn’t hard enough. High-level athletes have NOTHING on our kids.</p>
<p>OK, done for now.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>@mom4bwayboy my D told me the exact same thing a couple weeks ago as they were discussing this in her freshman acting class</p>
<p>Also if you look up soozievt she has wrote several times about her D and creating her own work. </p>
<p>I do believe that many of the top schools who are seeing get success with its alumni on broadway are looking to do just that and many of there programs are very full with not as much time for artists to explore other avenues in the business because there simply is no time in their schedule. </p>
<p>This thread reminds me of many of the studies about the importance of attending an Ivy League school for success in a career. Most of these studies show that a higher percentage of Ivy League students have more lucrative (not necessarily more successful - depends upon how you define success) careers, but when compared to students from less selective schools who had similar qualifications as the Ivy League students (GPA and test scores), there is no statistical difference in career earnings or success. The individual’s drive, initiative, persistence, resilience, and talents determine success. It may take a little more initiative and perseverance to get that first break, but after the first step on the ladder, it is how you perform that matters (which includes your talent, and, importantly, how much others want to work with you - your EQ, do people enjoy working with you, your reliabilty, loyalty, commitment, effort, etc). </p>
<p>My son is at what is arguably a top school, and among his 4 acceptances was a 2nd top school. However, he had rejections from schools with more prestigeous and lesser reputations. It is important to remember that acceptance in the top schools is a lottery. There are dozens of programs that can provide the training to enable someone to reach for a successful career. </p>
<p>@mom4bwayboy - You bring up something critical, I think. Some “top” programs do a great job of giving kids fish (grooming prize ponies), while others provide more opportunities to learn to fish (messy but rewarding). I think schools that offer lots of chances to be part of the broad creative process, including plenty of chances to fail miserably, are awesome, yet sometimes such programs are dismissed because someone visits campus and sees a bad student show, or sees a bad YouTube video from a student production rather than carefully controlled perfection. Truly learning to make art can be messy! D’s school does a very large student-written musical (professionally directed) every year, as well as a very large fully student-produced musical (both performed in 1000+ seat theaters) and while I’ve not yet seen one I can imagine that some aren’t great - but what amazing learning experiences for everyone involved! Many programs are too edited to allow such potentially-messy productions to happen, which I think is a shame.</p>
<p>@broadway95 - postings written by @soozievt about her D are some of the “arguments” we have considered in our own decision-making. Another fantastic example of the wisdom to be found on these threads.</p>
<p>@SaratogaParent - I was going back to edit my diatribe to contain the importance of “EQ” and working collaboratively, but you beat me to it. Love the sharing of great minds.</p>
<p>@MomCares - We are all for “messy” at our house. Fortunately S is a H.S. acting studio, outside of school theatre program, that is just that. We get to see incredible risk-taking in that group, and the phenomenal growth - amongst the students that are willing to not be “perfect”, to be “unsure” - as a result. Because of this experience, his “must have” list has changed considerably from the list he had as a junior.</p>
<p>Failure and “not knowing” are the beginning of learning. WIthout those, can there ever be learning? Isn’t that what college is REALLY about? Learning to pick yourself up from failure in a safe, caring environment, so you learn how to survive the “hard knocks” that are definitely in the future?</p>