Top Southern Schools

College Search & Selection
61

<p>
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Emory, Duke, Rice, and others have all been called that by someone at some point, it's really a kind of useless comparison.

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<p>I have never heard that comparison for the former two. Rice is not referred to as the 'Harvard of the South' merely because of its ranking; its admissions philosophy and overall university spirit embody the 'Ivy Mentality,' which usually encompasses the notion of learning for the sake of learning. Whereas the former two schools are much more pre-professional. </p>

<p>If the Ivy League were to expand suddenly, I bet Rice would be included.</p>

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I have never heard that comparison for the former two.

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Well they have been called that; Duke especially, I bet it's been called that more frequently than Rice. Depends on where you live.</p>

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If the Ivy League were to expand suddenly, I bet Rice would be included.

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I doubt it. Geographically, that makes no sense.</p>

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I doubt it. Geographically, that makes no sense.

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<p>Obviously. However, I am sure the same can be said for Stanford.</p>

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Depends on where you live.

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<p>Not really. I have seen Rice mentioned as 'the Ivy of the South' multiple times on this forum, and I read many posts of surprise that Duke is ranked as highly as it is.</p>

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<p>kcirsch, I see you are in Dallas, but you need to get out more</p>

<p>Someone said "east of I-35" but really it is the Piney Woods region of East and Southeast Texas that is purely southern. The boundary is about halfway between Dallas and Tyler, runs north and south and loops around and includes Houston. Tyler, Lufkin, Houston, Beaumont -- all peas out of the same pod with Atlanta, Jackson, Charleston, etc. The remainder of Texas is western, and fits with Tucson and San Diego.</p>

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<p>This reminds me of a humor newsarticle I found on the internet one day. It was from the Emory Spoke, or Wheel or something. </p>

<p>Havard sues Emory on the grounds that latter fouls the former's name by declaring itself "The Harvard of the South". Yale sues both for emotional damages because nobody ever calls themselves "The Yale of the South". :D</p>

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<p>
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Obviously. However, I am sure the same can be said for Stanford.

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That's why Stanford isn't in the Ivy League either...?</p>

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Not really. I have seen Rice mentioned as 'the Ivy of the South' multiple times on this forum, and I read many posts of surprise that Duke is ranked as highly as it is.

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People on this board live in certain regions too... Just because it's in a few threads here means it's universal? Far from it. I'm from the North, and Duke is a LOT better-known than Rice, like, it's not even really all that close, no offense.</p>

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<p>
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That's why Stanford isn't in the Ivy League either...?

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<p>Sorry, I will not bother explaining it any further. It is beyond you. </p>

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Just because it's in a few threads here means it's universal?

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<p>That was not my argument, but thanks for the strawman. </p>

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I'm from the North, and Duke is a LOT better-known than Rice

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<p>It does not matter that it is a lot better known; Bob Jones University is probably better known than, say, WUSTL, but it is not better and would likely not be considered an 'Ivy of the South.'</p>

<p>I will try, once again, to explicate my reasoning: it is not based on geography that a school should be referred to as an 'Ivy,' but on the qualities that the school embodies. I have read consistent complaints and exhortations that Rice should be ranked higher, and considered 'The Ivy of the South,' and I have read consistent complaints that Duke is ranked too high, to speak nothing of its un-Ivy-like character.</p>

<p>Among educated people, I think, and this forum does serve as somewhat of an accurate representation of them, Rice holds the lead.</p>

<p>Even in Rice, students do not care much about the Ivys, or any other school for that matter; however, have you even deigned to read the transfer threads from Duke students?</p>

68

<p>I wouldn't be too quick to promote Ivy intellectualism. U Penn is at least as pre-professional as Duke, for example. If the Ivy League wanted to expand, U Chicago would be the most likely candidate, although I doubt it would do so. </p>

<p>Perhaps Duke is not Ivy-like because it has good sports teams? I think ay_caramba's confused because your claim is a bit of an enthymeme. :p</p>

69

<p>
[quote]
I will try, once again, to explicate my reasoning: it is not based on geography that a school should be referred to as an 'Ivy,' but on the qualities that the school embodies.

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And I will try again to explain my reasoning.
First of all, the argument was about Harvard of the South, not Ivy of the South, and those are two very different things.
Secondly, the Ivy League has everything to do with geography; notice how all the member schools are in the Northeast? That's because its an athletic conference that was started in the 1950s when transportation across long distances wasn't as easy. Yes, academics and age played a part, but don't discount the fact that it was created to form what was back then a major power football conference. Honestly, I don't think Rice, or UChicago or Duke or Stanford or MIT for that matter, WANTS to be called an "Ivy" by you or anyone else because they're simply not. That's all I was commenting on, that it's a silly comparison to say Rice:Harvard::South:North or that Rice somehow "belongs" in a group of schools that are defined by things other than academics, which you seem to bound your entire argument by.</p>

<p>As for the the whole Stanford not being in the Ivy League thing, yeah, I guess it is beyond me... or that you just didn't make your argument very clearly.</p>

<p>Don't bother to respond, I'm probably too dumb to understand it anyway.</p>

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<p>
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I wouldn't be too quick to promote Ivy intellectualism. U Penn is at least as pre-professional as Duke, for example. If the Ivy League wanted to expand, U Chicago would be the most likely candidate, although I doubt it would do so

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<p>That crossed my mind, though I was hoping our simple-minded friend would not catch that. </p>

<p>I think that, among the schools that would be included in the Ivy League if they ever expanded, UChicago, Stanford, and Rice would be included. My friend said that Georgetown would, as well, but I disagree with that.</p>

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Secondly, the Ivy League has everything to do with geography

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<p>I thought it was obvious I was arguing on a theoretical level, given the criteria I was using.</p>

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Honestly, I don't think Rice, or UChicago or Duke or Stanford or MIT for that matter, WANTS to be called an "Ivy" by you or anyone else because they're simply not.

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<p>Really? Noesis, the one who rendered the initial claim in this thread, is a rising senior at Rice. </p>

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which you seem to bound your entire argument by.

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<p>Once again, I made lucid the criteria I was using. My argument was purely hypothetical.</p>

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<p>
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Really? Noesis, the one who rendered the initial claim in this thread, is a rising senior at Rice.

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Ask the administration, see what they say, I can guarantee it won't be "Wow, that would be awesome!"</p>

<p>My whole point in all of this is not to disagree with you about Rice; I really don't know about Rice (just as you seem to know very little about Duke) and quite frankly I don't care to find anything out. I just find the whole notion of comparing other schools to the Ivy league as though it is the intellectual pinnacle of higher education is insulting to the great schools that are not in the Ivy League. I also find speculating about which schools could be in the Ivy League should they so graciously deign to open their doors to someone else misleading as to what's important in a college, and also missing the point. Every Ivy League school is very different, trying to unite them under one "type" is not as simple as you make it out to be. How is anyplace more preprofessional than Wharton? How do Brown's lack of core requirements and Columbia's rather defined core curriculum match up? How does Harvard's professional prowess resemble Dartmouth's relatively small size? How can you say that Rice is any better suited to be part of the Ivy League than Duke? I would say Duke more closely resembles Harvard because of its professional schools, why doesn't it belong? Your criteria are just so subjective.</p>

<p>I know I'm not exactly addressing your point, but my whole point to begin with was that such a comparison between Rice or any other school and Harvard/the Ivy League is a fruitless one. And I don't think you've really proved otherwise. You've been content with just making smart little responses back at me, and that's fine. Whatever.</p>

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I was hoping our simple-minded friend would not catch that.

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There's really no reason to get personal.</p>

72

<p>
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Ask the administration, see what they say, I can guarantee it won't be "Wow, that would be awesome!"

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<p>I doubt any administration would say that, and I was not purporting to argue so.</p>

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I don't care to find anything out. I just find the whole notion of comparing other schools to the Ivy league as though it is the intellectual pinnacle of higher education is insulting to the great schools that are not in the Ivy League.

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<p>I did not mean to imply that, nor is it implied in anywhere of my posts.</p>

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I also find speculating about which schools could be in the Ivy League should they so graciously deign to open their doors to someone else misleading as to what's important in a college, and also missing the point.

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<p>Yes, but I think it is implicit that whether or not a school is in the Ivy-League should not serve as a major factor in one's decision. </p>

<p>
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I know I'm not exactly addressing your point, but my whole point to begin with was that such a comparison between Rice or any other school and Harvard/the Ivy League is a fruitless one. And I don't think you've really proved otherwise.

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<p>I never purported to prove it in the first place, and I do not think any proof can be offered. It was a subjunctive conditional statement that is up to dispute, according to you, but which is sound according to the responses I have read on this forum.</p>

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You've been content with just making smart little responses back at me, and that's fine.

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<p>And you have been content with drawing non-existent conclusions from my post.</p>

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<p>college23 - Sorry to have offended you, it was just tongue in cheek.</p>

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<p>
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And you have been content with drawing non-existent conclusions from my post.

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Once again, you fail to really say anything useful. You still have yet to say anything about why Rice is any more Ivy Leagueish than any other school except for something vague about its admissions policy and learning for learning's sake, because seriously, what elite university doesn't embrace that. I haven't read anything on this forum that implies that Rice is somehow closer to the Ivy League than any other school, enlighten me. Stop taking small sections of what I say and responding to them, saying "No, I didn't say that," and tell me what you ARE saying, maybe then you'll give something resembling a useful response.</p>

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<p>Theres about 20 Southern Schools with National Prestige --</p>

<p>Prestigious:
Colleges -- Duke, Rice, Vandy, Emory, UVA
LACs -- Davidson, Washington and Lee </p>

<p>Also Well-Regarded:
Colleges -- Wake Forest, UNC, William and Mary, GTech, Tulane, UT-Austin
LACs -- Richmond</p>

<p>Tier Two:
Colleges -- Miami, UF, UGA (on the rise academically)
LACs --Rhodes, Sewanee, and Furman (regional prestige, competitive)</p>

76

<p>
[quote]
Texas just cannot be defined as "southern." There are many rural parts of Texas, yes, but they feel more "Texan" than they feel "southern." Texas does not have a lot in common with the quaint and beautiful North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina, Georgia, etc. If you are from these places you WILL be shocked at the lack of trees in Texas.

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Unfortunately, you show your ignorance of geography. You have obviously never heard of the Big Thicket, The Piney Woods, companies like Temple Eastex that have made a living from East Texas timber for over 100 years. Visit Nacodoches or Lufkin and tell me we don't have trees. Visit Caddo Lake and tell me we don't have moss hung trees with 1000 year old cypress swamps. Visit the Rice campus and try to count the live oak trees. Rice has a most definite southern feel.
<a href="http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/aldridge/forest.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/aldridge/forest.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

77

<p>
[quote]
Stop taking small sections of what I say and responding to them, saying "No, I didn't say that,"

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<p>And once again, stop drawing non-existent implications from my posts. God knows what you will draw from this one. However, just to anticipate, it will probably something along the lines of 'nspeds cannot argue,' or 'I have won this argument.' Let me draw the implication for you: I do not have the time right now.</p>

<p>By the way, you used 'subjective' incorrectly in your post. If you had any notion of the subjective/objective distinction, you would have drawn the correct implications using the schematic rules of logical inference. Since invariance eludes you, perhaps sticking to the word 'arbitrary' would be apt.</p>

<p>And yes, my criteria is arbitrary. I have no trouble in admitting that. I do not purport to provide an authoritative argument for why a school should be considered an 'Ivy' or 'Harvard-like'. </p>

<p>At the same time, however, I do believe that such statements as 'Rice is the Ivy of the South' or 'Harvard of the South' are not wholly unjustified; they are mentioned because there is actually some truth to it. That many participants on this board, who happen to be well-educated on universities and the admissions, affirm that claim attests to the verity of it. Once again, I hardly ever read arguments in favor of Duke being considered as such, and I often read posts that complain of Duke's unusually high ranking.</p>

<p>In addition, as a student who has made extensive visits to both Harvard and Rice, I think am in the position to draw an adequate comparison. I also visited Duke, and I have many friends there. They do not complain, but the atmosphere they describe does not reflect the kind of environment one observes at, say, Stanford or Princeton. There is a distinction between schools that you are overlooking.</p>

<p>Students like to make LAC equivalents. I believe one argument is that Williams is the equivalent of Harvard, Swarthmore of Yale, and Amherst of some other school. I cannot be sure. However, there is a reason for making such claims. </p>

<p>The essence of my argument is based on the educated opinion of those on this board. The participants of this forum are not posting random lines for no apparent reason. They have a reason for what they are saying, and the purpose of my posts is to attempt to discover the reasons behind their statements.</p>

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<p>Calling any school "Harvard of the South" shows that the school is insecure about its prestige, at least in my opinion.</p>

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<p>
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And once again, stop drawing non-existent implications from my posts.

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How could I have drawn any non-existent implications when I didn't do anything in my last post except ask you to explain yourself?</p>

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However, just to anticipate, it will probably something along the lines of 'nspeds cannot argue,' or 'I have won this argument.'

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Actually, I don't know why you're being so defensive, I'm not trying to attack you, I just wanted to see if you had any better justification than "People on this forum more often post this than this" because you will find a wide variety of people and positions on this board and most posters, though you say they're educated about colleges, evidence more regional bias and arbitrary opinions than objective conclusions about the relative quality of certain colleges. Most people on this board are high school students that have little experience with colleges and still judge them by name recognition alone.
That said, you (finally) gave me what I wanted, some justification. You said you've made extensive trips to Harvard and Rice and know many people at Duke. You really could have shut me up with that to begin with. I'm not out to prove everyone wrong, I'm just looking for something other than "Well, Duke has no intellectual atmosphere because it's in the South and has a good basketball team" or lots of other dumb things you will come across in this forum.</p>

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[quote]
By the way, you used 'subjective' incorrectly in your post. If you had any notion of the subjective/objective distinction, you would have drawn the correct implications using the schematic rules of logical inference. Since invariance eludes you, perhaps sticking to the word 'arbitrary' would be apt.

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Thanks for bringing up something I said like 3 posts ago that does nothing to help your point but is only there to make me look bad. Real classy.</p>

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Thanks for bringing up something I said like 3 posts ago that does nothing to help your point but is only there to make me look bad. Real classy.

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<p>OH!!! Sorry... I did not know we were not adhering to the words said in previous posts.</p>

<p>At any rate, I truly apologize if I sounded derisive. Your posts just rubbed off on me in the wrong way.</p>

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Most people on this board are high school students that have little experience with colleges and still judge them by name recognition alone.

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<p>Actually, I usually discard posts from such users.</p>

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Calling any school "Harvard of the South" shows that the school is insecure about its prestige, at least in my opinion.

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<p>Not necessarily. Harvard is an excellent school, in my opinion, and to suggest that your school is 'a Harvard' might only mean that it is an ideal after which it models itself.</p>

<p>It could also be used as a point of reference in terms of intellectual caliber, type of students, and so forth. Students make reference to schools by other schools in order to convey a sense of the former school to those who are not acquainted with it. We do it in conversation quite often, for instance:</p>

<p>nspeds: Where are you from?
John: Los Angeles.
nspeds: Really? I have never been there.
John: Oh, it is the New York of the West Coast.</p>

<p>Is John jealous or insecure? Not really. He is just trying to give me an idea of what it is like. Perhaps he also chose New York because he would like to boost the 'prestige' - whatever that is - of his city; however, when describing your school, city, or any sort of affiliation, I am not sure that many persons would say it is comparable to something that is popularly conceived as worse.</p>