Top Student Looking Beyond the Ivy League? Read on….

College Search & Selection
81

<p>coddus,
I agree that social and athletic life have less campus impact at Harvard and Columbia and probably the other Ivies than at the universe of Division I schools mentioned (Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Notre Dame, Georgetown, USC, and Wake Forest). This is not an important factor for all students, but it could be an important differentiating factor for students who would like to have this. </p>

<p>In cases where students are ok with a less active social and/or athletic scene, a comparison with some top LACs would be logical. Here are some of the numbers for the Top 8 USNWR ranked LACs vs the other mentioned schools. The LACs measured are Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Wellesley, Middlebury, Carleton, Pomona, Bowdoin</p>

<p>AVERAGE NUMBER OF UNDERGRADUATE STUDENTS:
7514 Lower Ivies
6452 Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
9305 Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
1890 LAC Group</p>

<p>% ADMITTED:
17% Lower Ivies
27% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
30% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
23% LAC Group</p>

<p>25/75 CRITICAL READING
654-752 (Avg 703) Lower Ivies
644-742 (Avg 698) Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
5 points Difference in favor of Ivies
627-720 (Avg 674) Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
29 point Difference in favor of Ivies
661-756 (Avg 709) LAC Group
6 point Difference in favor of LAC Group</p>

<p>25/75 MATH
672-768 (Avg 720) Lower Ivies
664-760 (Avg 712) Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
8 points Difference in favor of Ivies
657-730 (Avg 694) Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
26 point Difference in favor of Ivies
658-746 (Avg 702)
18 point Difference in favor of Ivies </p>

<p>25/75 COMBINED CR + MATH
1326-1520 (Avg 1423) Lower Ivies
1308-1502 (Avg 1410) Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
13 point Difference in favor of Ivies
1283-1450 (Avg 1368) Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
55 point Difference in favor of Ivies
1319-1503 (Avg 1411) LAC Group
12 point Difference in favor of Ivies</p>

<p>% OF STUDENTS IN THE TOP 10%
90% Lower Ivies
84% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
78% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
84% LAC Group</p>

<p>FRESHMAN RETENTION
97% Lower Ivies
97% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
95% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
97% LAC Group</p>

<p>% FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS
56% Lower Ivies
64% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
59% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
60% LAC Group</p>

<p>CLASSES OVER 50 STUDENTS
10% Lower Ivies
8% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
7% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
3% LAC Group</p>

<p>CLASSES UNDER 20 STUDENTS
67% Lower Ivies
64% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
58% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
70% LAC Group</p>

<p>STUDENT/FACULTY RATIO
8/1 Lower Ivies
8/1 Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
10/1 Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
8.5/1 LAC Group</p>

<p>ALUMNI GIVING RATE
40% Lower Ivies
37% Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
30% Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
56% LAC Group</p>

<p>AVERAGE COST
$35,499 Lower Ivies
$32,999 Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
$35,368 Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
$35,642 LAC Group</p>

<p>PEER ASSESSMENT
4.5 Lower Ivies
4.2 Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame
3.8 Georgetown/USC/Wake Forest
Different scale for LACs so not applicable</p>

82

<p>Actually, after a little research, I can see why a Nobel Laureate might choose to refrain from teaching undergraduates. I mean, consider this: You're Finn Kydland. You've just won the Nobel freaking Prize for Economics. You've rubbed shoulders with heads of state; people turn and look when you walk by. You've been on the big stage in Stockholm; you're a legitimately cool guy. And because you're a legitimately cool guy, you say to yourself: I think I'll teach Econ 101. I'm an Economist; I'm a Professor; I'm gonna teach some economics to some college students, dammit!! </p>

<p>So you go back and do a bunch of homework to prepare for this undertaking, because - let's be honest - it's been a while since you've covered this stuff at this level. And you sign up for the class, and give the lectures, and yeah, it's kind of cool. "I'm an Econ professor, by God. I teach college students!"</p>

<p>And after the quarter you go back and - let's face it, you just can't not do it - you check out what the students have posted on the "ratemyprofessors" website. And this is what you read:
[quote]
I love this guy, his cranium is so large it turns me on. I mean it reflects how smart he is, and just imagining myself playing with his bald head turns me on. Too bad I scored a 21 on my midterm, but I would still totally do him. He's so hot!

[/quote]

:rolleyes:</p>

83

<p>I've TAed. It's not really that fulfilling teaching most undergrads.</p>

<p>I had one ask me, in the middle of discussion, if they "could just sit and listen to me lecture."</p>

<p>I said, "this is discussion. The "discuss" part implies something. Get to it."</p>

84

<p>No offense, but in my opinion the term "lower ivies" is non-sensical. Also, when considering sports, varsity and intramural athletics are a significant part of campus life at more than one Ivy League campus; particurlarly at Harvard. 50,000 (not all of them students) people may attend a football game 5 saturdays a year at other campuses, but sports participation at Ivy school is typically much more prevelent (broad).</p>

85

<p>just came across your engaging post. i'm curious. how did you decide that vandy ranks above wash u? even above emory?
thanks</p>

86

<p>I attended a lecture by Edmund Phelps, Nobel Laureate in Economics 2006. MISERABLE lecture. Gawd it was horrible/awkward/embarrassing.</p>

87

<p>sherbear,
I'm not certain if your question was posed to me or some other poster, but I'll respond just in case it was to me. </p>

<p>IMO, Wash U has the strongest statistical student profile among Wash U, Emory and Vanderbilt. I would consider Vanderbilt and Emory nearly interchangeable on student quality. Emory and Vanderbilt are often lumped together because they are both physically located in the South, but this knee-jerk association may be off the mark. Visit both colleges and you will see that the campuses of each are different flavors and often will appeal to different types of students. </p>

<p>As for the rationale behind the groupings above, take a look further back through the thread; the group of Duke/Northwestern/Rice/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame was chosen because of their Division I athletic life. Clearly Wash U and Emory are academically competitive with these colleges, but their athletic programs are Division III. Many folks (perhaps including you) don't care about this aspect, but many do. I contend that the athletic life at a college has a signficant influence on campus social life and creates a positive buzz that impacts undergraduate life. If you don't think so, then I encourage you to speak to any Duke student about their basketball game experience and how this infuses a certain spirit into the rest of the campus. Similar energy is produced by the athletic programs at the other schools (Rice would be weakest, but its baseball is superb).</p>

88

<p>thanks for your response.
i see now where you were coming from. sorry.
my s has applied to duke (huge reach), unc (a legacy that could help oos), vandy, emory (dad on medical faculty so a huge bargain), uga (also free with the hope scholarship) tulane (who offered him their 24 k a year and the honors program).
i loved vandy, but the price tag difference can't be ignored.
time will tell. first the schools will make their decisions. then my s will have to decide.
thanks again</p>

89

<p>LOL.....I dont think that rating colleges and then selecting them for attendance should rise and fall on their top 30 ranking in USNWR or their avg sat scores or whatever minutiae one picks. It should be based on overall fit. Academic fit is ONE factor. But just because you have a 1400 plus SAT does NOT mean you should restrict yourself to the elite LAC's and national Universities. </p>

<p>as UCLAri succinctly and poignantly said, "I know people who made choices for undergrad that would make many people on this site simply faint from shock.</p>

<p>But they are happy, successful, whole people who defined themselves with something other than their school name."</p>

<p>And that my friends is the entire picture in a nutshell. Being HAPPY, SUCCESSFUL, WHOLE people which has very little to do with prestige and SAT scores.</p>

<p>You may very well be very happy and successful at Duke or Notre Dame or whatever. Or Dartmouth. Good for you! Congrats! But you may also be just as happy and successful or even moreso at a lesser known or lower ranked school and that all depends on the individual.</p>

<p>At most every college in the United States you will find kids with uber stats. Its a myth they all go to the top schools. A myth.</p>

<p>And that is a good thing.</p>

<p>If you love Vandy, then go for it. Its a great school! But if you end up at Tulane or Georgia, that is also wonderful. I know people at both of them and they are both very, very happy.</p>

90

<p>i really liked vandy. my son liked it, but he is not in love with it.
if he knew what would truly make him happy, that's be great.
he's still trying to figure it all out.
thanks for your imput.</p>