<p>BTW i586, hinman never said that a kid who goes to a 'crappy' state university and graduates w/ all C's won't be successful, but the degree isn't gonna help him much or open many doors for him, especially compared to (for example) a 3.5GPA EECS from Berkeley.</p>
<p>BTW the school you go to does mean something. MIT, Stanford, and Caltech graduates are going to have a lot more options then just another engineering job. Sakky has pointed out numerous times that only 25% of MIT graduates go into engineering. The rest go into banking, consulting, start-ups, etc. Now if you absolutely want to go into engineering, then I guess the school does not matter as much but its still important. For example, companies like Google, MS, Yahoo get the vast majority of their graduates from higher-end schools. I have never heard of a Fresno State/Chico State/Northern Arizona University graduate getting a great job at one of those companies. Not to say that it can't happen, but the odds are FAR less and they almost certainly won't get the same position/pay as the graduates from higher end schools.</p>
<p>As for starting your own business, I'll give you that. Heck, people won't even know if your an 8th grade drop-out and ex-felon.</p>
<p>it happens all the time, I got hired at IBM, 6 other from my school are going to Microsoft, 1 to AMD, 11 to Nvidia, 3 to google, 7 to intel. Its not uncommon and is foolish to think the school really matters. I am confident that it does not. My school is ranked 57th in EECS and we still get all the big time employers hiring.</p>
<p>57th out of 4000 universities is pretty good. I was saying that California State University, Fullerton is not going to be equal to UC Davis, UMass Amherst, Texas A&M, etc.</p>
<p>I think being a doctor is harder simply because of the time you need to spend before you become a real doctor. I'm somewhat patient, but I don't have all the time in the world.</p>
<p>i586, UB, IMO is a respected engineering college. It's not on the same level as MIT, CalTech, etc, but I'd expect quality engineers from UB. The college you go to DOES matter though in terms of recruitment. Better colleges tend to churn out better engineers on average, and thus networking opportunities are increased. If you can start a company all by yourself, that's great, but that's not the case for everybody.</p>
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UnseenShadow - I don't agree. A very high level of intelligence is required to do either. Engineers are not "smarter" than MDs or lawyer's or financial analysts. They are different people with different interests that pursue different goals. There are brilliant Medical Doctors and there are feebleminded engineers as well.
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Are you saying that different professions can't have different average IQs? Or are you just saying those professions likely have similar IQs?</p>
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i think engineering undergrad is one of the hardest if not the hardest, but to say you are smarter than someone just because you are an engineering major is total BS. I know plenty of english majors and humanities people getting A's in calc1 and 2. what about you? i doubt all engineering majors got A's in math. so stop being so ignorant. you don't need to be smart to be an engineer. you need to be smart and hardworking if you want to be a great/successful/achieving engineer. i know engineering majors who end up as technicians(nothing against them) or are called "interns" since companies don't wanna pay up until they prove their worth.
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Umm, we are talking about averages and correlations. No one says the dumbest engineer is smarter than the smartest writer. That's idiotic. Averages.</p>
<p>Payne - I am speaking about averages. To blatantly state the average engineer has a higher IQ than a Medical Doctor seems like a bit of an exaggeration. Keep in mind there are many different types of intelligences. </p>
<p>I for one, Am not so intelligent with linguistics, But my logical-mathematical skills are up there. Someone in business may have very high spatial intelligence or interpersonal intelligence. Most engineers/engineer majors are better at science and math, while an artist's creativity can speak for itself as far as that intelligence. What about musical intelligence; singing, composing, playing an instrument? bodily-kinesthetic the ability to control muscle movements gracefully. All require intelligence. </p>
<p>My POV - what constitutes intelligence is the concept of multiple intelligences. There are varying forms of intelligence that people possess in many degrees. To label yourself brighter than the average person because you are involved in an engineering program is preposterous. </p>
<p>MDs, top civil servants, CEO's, Financial Analysts "dumber" than Engineers? I beg to differ.</p>
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My POV - what constitutes intelligence is the concept of multiple intelligences. There are varying forms of intelligence that people possess in many degrees. To label yourself brighter than the average person because you are involved in an engineering program is preposterous.
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You must be kidding. I believe the average IQ of engineers is 120+. It's not 100, it's not even close to 100. </p>
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MDs, top civil servants, CEO's, Financial Analysts "dumber" than Engineers? I beg to differ.
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Those professions likely have similar IQs to engineering. To discern which ones are dumber or smarter would be of no real purpose other than an ego boost.</p>
<p>However, to think the average engineer and the average janitor have the same IQ is preposterous. Similarly, an MD is of a much higher intellect than an assembler at a manufacturing plant.</p>
<p>For those of you who spaz out at the mention of one profession being "smarter" than another, just be rational. No one is saying that all engineers are smarter than all doctors, or that all lawyers are smarter than all business types. We're just talking medians/averages here. I did read somewhere that engineers, lawyers, and physician typically fall quite close to the same IQ range. I personally believe, however, that if people of the same IQ were to take the standard coursework required for all of these fields, they would tend to have slightly more difficultly with the engineering coursework. Physics, higher math, chemistry, and particulary the upper division coursework for engineering are particularly challenging for your typical student. Given the cumulative nature of the learning, I would have to lean toward the opinion that engineering is slightly more difficult from the conceptual standpoint. I do think med students have the more overwhelming workload, however. After all, you're looking at about 10 years at a minimum. For engineers, that is entirely optional.</p>
<p>Payne - I made no mention of janitors, I was merely referring to the comment made that engineers have higher IQ's than MDs. I know a ton of NYU, Columbia and Einstein Medical School students. I have had the opportunity to meet many and I can assure you they are equally as intelligent if not more intelligent than the engineering students. </p>
<p>To say medical school is easier it just requires more work is completely foolish. Maybe none of you understand how much pressure is always being put on med students - medical school prepares you for life as a doctor in many different ways not just educationally but with time management, performing under pressure, analysis and logical reasoning. </p>
<p>From an academic standpoint I see where you're coming from, A student with an IQ of 90 will have a very difficult time keeping up with the coursework for most engineering major and would more than likely flunk out. </p>
<p>My 2 cents - The entire debate is foolish, I never stated that just any person has what it takes to be an engineer; on the contrary it requires brains and a ton of devotion. It just seems unjustified, to me at least, to say engineers are brighter than EVERYONE else.</p>
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Payne - I made no mention of janitors, I was merely referring to the comment made that engineers have higher IQ's than MDs. I know a ton of NYU, Columbia and Einstein Medical School students. I have had the opportunity to meet many and I can assure you they are equally as intelligent if not more intelligent than the engineering students.
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</p>
<p>Your methodology in determining this isn't a very good one. A good way to determine this is to see the SAT distributions for engineers and doctors.</p>
<p>i586, school does matter. thats why you go to school. why else are their rankings? did I ever say a "C" student at a state Univ can't do well? nope. i did say he has less options</p>
<p>guess what, the guy I am tutoring now, has a job at northrop grumman with a starting salary with $65k, doubt there's a bonus. he has a 2.1 from UMD-CP and is awesome at programming. But guess what? The only jobs he applied to were in this region because he cannot travel far for interviews and the only places he contacted were at the job fair. bigger name schools get recruited everywhere. lesser known schools get recruited regionally.</p>
<p>if you think for a second that rankings do not matter at ALL... you are an idiot. it's like saying all high schools are the same.... you f-ing wish. like some high schools have AP classes and some don't. some univ's have better labs, better TA's, better profs, better facilities. the school definitely matters.</p>
<p>i586, school does matter. thats why you go to school. why else are their rankings? did I ever say a "C" student at a state Univ can't do well? nope. i did say he has less options</p>
<p>guess what, the guy I am tutoring now, has a job at northrop grumman with a starting salary with $65k, doubt there's a bonus. he has a 2.1 from UMD-CP and is awesome at programming. But guess what? The only jobs he applied to were in this region because he cannot travel far for interviews and the only places he contacted were at the job fair. bigger name schools get recruited everywhere. lesser known schools get recruited regionally.</p>
<p>if you think for a second that rankings do not matter at ALL... you are an idiot. it's like saying all high schools are the same.... you f-ing wish. like some high schools have AP classes and some don't. some univ's have better labs, better TA's, better profs, better facilities. the school definitely matters.
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</p>
<p>I go to school to get recognition that I know a subject. I don't go to learn, I don't go for the experience and I don't go for anything else. I go simply for the fact that some jobs are uptight and want folks to have a college education. I don't blame them, but I didn't learn all to much in my 5 years that I didn't know prior. </p>
<p>Im not sure about the less options. If you want to deal with the options that people give you. then yes you are right. But I make my own options, and am not defined by others. If I wanted to work for Google id work for Google. I chose IBM and IBM didn't choose me.</p>
<p>Call me an idiot, but I don't think rankings matter. If you want to materialize education then sure they might. But it has never been proven than a pos public U has any worse TA's, labs, professors or facilities. I just think that rankings are made and used by the same people that say a $600 pair of gucci jeans is worth it over a $20 pair of old navys. Its just not worth it.</p>
<p>If you want to live your life with your fate controlled by others, then thats fine. I choose not to. If I want something I go get it</p>
<p>I never said engineering majors were smarter than doctors, I said it takes more intelligence to become a decent engineer, and less intelligence but more hard work to become a doctor. And yes, your average engineer with a decent job working in research and development is more intelligent than your average doctor. To get into med school only requires you to take basic biology, chemistry, organic chemistry and basic physics. Grades and ec's matter more than your innate intelligence. There is no way in hell your average doctor could ever in his or her life solve complex analytical problems. They simply do not have the brainpower.</p>
<p>it's a relatively old but nonetheless feel free to go over the whole thing. the avg iqs of the different career fields are stated about mid-way through.</p>
<p>indeed though, engineers seem to possess the highest "IQ" -- however one may want to interpret that piece of info. professionals (physicians, etc.) are next, though i think the variation is negligble.</p>
<p>As a Ph.D physicist who works as an "engineer" and teaches EE's as an adjunct faculty member at a pretty decent LAC, I would say most engineers can't solve their way out of paper bag - certainly not complex analytical problems. Engineers don't expect to learn how to think but rather to learn where to find the answer. One of the major differences between physics and engineering is that physics emphasizes the understanding of principles far more than engineering.</p>
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I go to school to get recognition that I know a subject. I don't go to learn, I don't go for the experience and I don't go for anything else. I go simply for the fact that some jobs are uptight and want folks to have a college education. I don't blame them, but I didn't learn all to much in my 5 years that I didn't know prior.
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</p>
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Call me an idiot, but I don't think rankings matter.
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</p>
<p>Would you say that these same employers wouldn't choose where to recruit new employees based on rankings (and by rankings, I mean quality)? Would your local community college grad get the same attention from HR as an ivy league grad?</p>
<p>"I never said engineering majors were smarter than doctors, I said it takes more intelligence to become a decent engineer, and less intelligence but more hard work to become a doctor. And yes, your average engineer with a decent job working in research and development is more intelligent than your average doctor. To get into med school only requires you to take basic biology, chemistry, organic chemistry and basic physics. Grades and ec's matter more than your innate intelligence. There is no way in hell your average doctor could ever in his or her life solve complex analytical problems. They simply do not have the brainpower."</p>
<p>unseenshadow, no offense but your reply is very elitist and unwise, with the last sentence being laughably so. engineers may have more work than most of the life science majors, but thousands of degrees are awarded each year, and i see many average minds make it through. im sure any student in med school could have gone through engineering undergrad if they had chosen a different path</p>
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As a Ph.D physicist who works as an "engineer" and teaches EE's as an adjunct faculty member at a pretty decent LAC, I would say most engineers can't solve their way out of paper bag - certainly not complex analytical problems.
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Well, are you teaching undergrads? Very few undergrads can even approach complex analytical problems. </p>
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Engineers don't expect to learn how to think but rather to learn where to find the answer.
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Generalize much? As compared to what? English majors? History majors? Business majors? I think you'd have to agree that Engineers spend a lot of time thinking (ie: studying) - certainly more time than the vast majority of the undergraduate population.</p>
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One of the major differences between physics and engineering is that physics emphasizes the understanding of principles far more than engineering.