<p>so i got into a discussion with my cousin about careers, and i finally asked him the question of what career he thought was harder to achieve: a doctor or engineer? </p>
<p>he told me that to become a doctor was more demanding given the overlong amount of schooling one must take in order to become one. true, one must go through undergrad, med school, and finally residency -- in aggregate requiring immense patience. that is not to mention the relatively slight difficulty in the curricula of a prospective med student. </p>
<p>i, however, thought otherwise. ironically, i don't really know exactly all the steps required to become an engineer (do they need to go to grad school?), and i know that the amount of education time-wise for a student to become an engineer is less than that required for a med student, but consider the esoteric concepts of the required subjects that engineers must be able to understand. they require so much brain power to the point where not just any lay student will be able to understand the material even with a lot of studying.</p>
<p>i know "doctors" have a higher avg salary than do engineers, but that is unsubstantial </p>
<p>for our interests' sake though, let's try and compare the route one must take if he/she wanted to become a chem/ee/mech/aero engineer for a prestigious entity (e.g., nasa) with the route one must take to get into a top-tier med school and later land a true doctor-paying job.</p>
<p>in the end though there is no wrong or right answer given the condition that there are such things as "good" doctors and "bad" doctors just as there are highly paid engineers and poorly paid engineers (that in addition to the different types of engineers). however, enlighten me. let your brains' run wild.</p>
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do they need to go to grad school?
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No.</p>
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consider the esoteric concepts of the required subjects
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In debate language, this is "non-unique."</p>
<hr>
<p>To achieve the title of an engineer is obviously much, much easier than it is to achieve the title of doctor. You'd finish a B.S. well enough to get a job and then start work. </p>
<p>Achieving the title of "doctor" involves finishing a B.S. with a strong enough performance to get into medical school -- a bar that 75% of MCAT takers will not pass -- and then completing four years of medical school, perhaps the most demanding type of graduate school there is. You must then be accepted into a residency. Upon the beginning of your residency, you are a doctor. There is very low attrition among those admitted to medical school -- most likely because the selection criteria are so rigorous -- but there's no denying that medical school is harder than ... well, nothing.</p>
<hr>
<p>Now, if you're asking about a "successful" doctor versus a "successful" engineer, then I have no idea what to tell you. Obviously this would vary a great, great deal from person to person. Strong memorizers would find medicine easier; strong mathematicians would find engineering easier.</p>
<p>I would look at attrition rates. At most schools, 75% or more of freshmen starting out as premed drop out before the application stage. Of those who apply, more than 50% don't get into a single med school. Thus, we're talking about only 10% or so of freshmen premeds actually making it into med school. The top med schools have acceptance rates of 3-5%.</p>
<p>To be an engineer, you just need to get your degrees. Obviously, engineering is rigorous but you don't need to keep the same kind of GPA as you would for med school. Acceptance rates at top grad schools for engineering are around 25%+.</p>
<p>whoa bluedevil and norcalO_O it's an honor to have cc celebs post on my thread (northstarmom is cool, too);]</p>
<p>on a serious note: (to norcal) although i'm about to fail to provide any backing or evidence, the problem with looking @ attrition rates is the difference in academic capability (and a few others) between the students entering undergrad intent on applying to med school and students entering undergrad as engineering majors. </p>
<p>in my own experience, i've seen many students (ranging from brilliant to less-than-average) who have said that they are planning on going to med school even though they don't really seem that motivated. on the other hand, students who claim an engineering major upon enrolling in undergrad typically seem more legitimate. that is, they seem more academically capable and they choose to get into engineering because it truely interests them.</p>
<p>is this generally true?</p>
<p>@norcalguy</p>
<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but A LOT of kids drop out of engineering or are weeded out early on if not later.</p>
<p>Anyways, back to the original question:</p>
<p>An engineering degree with a high GPA is extremely hard, especially at a so-called ballbuster school such as Harvey-Mudd, Caltech, and MIT. Luckily, engineers with GPA's as low as the 2 range can possibly find work.</p>
<p>Typical pre-med majors are easier than engineering BS degrees, but med school is probably much harder than getting a master's or PhD in engineering.</p>
<p>At the same time, consider that a PhD in engineering is useless unless you're doing research. If you try to find a job as an engineer with a PhD you will likely be constantly rejected due to over-qualification. This is not the case with MD/PhD's though. They can find work without fear of being "overqualified".</p>
<p>I am telling you this from experience. My dad has a master's in EE and BS in mechanical. He's constantly changing jobs for better wages and frequently gets calls about his resume. Many times he is considered "over-qualified".</p>
<p>As far as debt management goes, engineers have it much better. Many employers will pay for your education to get a master's or PhD.</p>
<p>I'd also argue that it is much harder to get into top undergrad engineering programs than colleges with a good pre-med atmosphere.</p>
<p>Regardless, the question is at its core a very basic one if all you're interested in is the title.</p>
<p>A B.S. in engineering v.s. a B.S. plus an M.D. There's no comparison.</p>
<p>Yeah, but you're not going to make much money with just a BS in engineering. Most people go on to get their master's or an MBA.</p>
<p>"cc celebs "</p>
<p>lol that amused me :D</p>
<p>I think being a doctor is tough because of the painstaking sacrifice you have to give (11-15 years of postsecondary education if you count residency) but if you are talking about academic difficulty, there nothing as tough as high level mathematics. The concepts are damn abstract, and if you can't just become good by working a lot: you just have to be smart, or you're done (my father did his PhD in mathematic statistics :) )
Research is also tough when talking about intellectual difficulty.
But comparing MD education to engineering education using intellectual difficulty just has no meaning because both aren't THAT challenging (intellectually) compared to what researchers have to undergo. However, that doesn't mean they are "easy" pathways.</p>
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there nothing as tough as high level mathematics
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I suspect I would find high level mathematics easier than the vast quantities of raw memorization medical students are faced with.</p>
<p>And besides, it's not like engineering demands math that's that abstract.</p>
<p>I also recognize that I'm out of the norm on this, but the point is that it varies from person to person.</p>
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Strong memorizers would find medicine easier; strong mathematicians would find engineering easier.
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</p>
<p>A more precise stratification would consider the combination of memorization skills and natural aptitude for math and science. </p>
<p>Those with innate science ability and memory skills do best in either field; those with weak skills in both do poorly in either; those with strong science ability but mediocre memorization skills do well in either field; those with mediocre science skills but strong memorization skills can do well on MCAT's, pass medical school curricula and become doctors, but may struggle with engineering.</p>
<p>N.B. Math majors generally do well on MCAT's and in medical school. Physical science majors ("scientists") outscore biological science majors ("memorizers") on the MCAT.</p>
<p>BDM, my point was that a great % of people with enough determination could succeed in medical school if they devote enough of their time and energy (memorization demands less intelligence). However, in math less than 2 or 3% of the population who are willing to devote enough determination will succeed. It has to be innate intelligence and astute thinking. For example, 9/10 of the math majors who studied with my father had grades below 50/100, mostly because their just didn't have the intelligence required and not because they were not willing to devote enough time and energy (there are no such thing as grade inflation in foreign countries)</p>
<p>Of course, I may just be overestimating mathematics in the US.</p>
<p>To my$0.02: What about humanities majors outscoring Biology majors on Physical science and having equal scores with biology majors on biological science on the MCAT?</p>
<p>At the very least, the point remains that engineering certainly does not demand math at the level you are describing.</p>