Not necessarily. Perhaps years ago that was the case. But from what I have seen, most girls I know who are currently in a sorority or have recently graduated want diversity. It will take a long time to change perceptions and prejudices but I am hopeful that this new generation of young women have a different view.
Also, on many campuses there are clubs/organization specific for different ethnicities. Therefore a whole lot of other options that might be more interesting.
I have a friend whose daughter rushed at Alabama… she is a different racial group and had the best recruitment experience. Smart, funny, engaging, and just a sweet heart. Several of the top houses wanted her so I think times have definitely changed ( same story for 3 of my other friends daughters at different SEC schools). My friend group is very diverse and all of the daughters in that group who rushed got their number 1 picks. Each of those girls held leadership positions within their sororities and had major impacts on their campuses.
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My own son is set to attend a “party school” with a distinct traditional greek culture (Syracuse). He is a stereotypical dork and not even remotely interested in rushing. He chose that over other less greek and more cerebral schools (including ones his friends are attending), due largely to its “warm” campus vibe.
Were it not for a medical heat intolerance, he would have applied to Alabama, and may have attended. His #2 choice was Mizzou which also has a dominant traditional greek culture. They’re big enough schools that greek presence hasn’t phased him. We’ll see what happens when he actually experiences college. He did choose the honors dorm over a more convenient dorm on fraternity row. He is confident he will find his “people” in college.
Like others have said, colleges include mutiple groups and cultures. However, the influence of specific subcultures can dominate over a school, for better or for worse.
I am interested in this documentary because I like learning about cultures, and individuals within those cultures. I like learning about official organizations that people voluntarily join, from benign to cult-like. Why do people choose to be part of them and what do they get from it? The thing that grabbed me most from the trailer was the student whose dad had died. I want to know about her.
I am reserving judgement about the filmmakers, the university, the sororities, and the students featured in the film until after I’ve seen it. I may not have enough info to make judgements even after I watch the film. I think this stuff is fascinating, and ultimately can help us learn about ourselves and our place in the world. Why do we seek to join the groups we join? What makes me different from someone who is drawn to greek life? How does greek life influence Bama and Tuscaloosa?
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I think people are smart enough to know that this doesn’t ONLY go on at UA. And it is informative to know that this goes on anywhere at all. I went to a medium-sized private college in the south many years ago, and I met some of these women that are portrayed in the documentary. And coming from the Midwest it was a shock. I transferred to a large midwest state U and never saw them again. And yes, even though there were other types of kids at the college, they still made me uncomfortable and had an effect on the “vibe” of the college.
There is a difference between running with a school/campus stereotype to the point of absurdity and looking at what a school really is and is not as a general matter for determining fit.
Why are some of us ready to say that LACs in New England are very left leaning and define a particular kind of experience, but hesitate to make some valid generalizations about one of the most visible southern schools of a type there is? Alabama is a big-time football/sports/southern tradition-embracing school that exists in a given regional, cultural and political context. It is of course easy to get carried away with that context and use generalizations to portray it as a monolith (and frankly, in some ways, it is a monolith). But the context matters.
Think about it. Some posters in this very thread (and many not in this thread) have made the point that Wesleyan has a particular culture and thus defines a unique experience that “is not for everyone.” Some posters would have you think there are campus-wide protests and riots happening every Wednesday and Thursday with people screaming in your face the second you park you car. This reputation leads to (IMO) curious observations like, “we felt (on our one visit) kids there protest for the sake of protesting (though nobody was actually protesting).” Magical “vibes”. It’s inaccurate and dumb. BUT, if a kid better suited for Hillsdale were about to matriculate to Wes, I might say, “hey buddy, you’re going to attend a New England LAC. Let’s talk about what that means.”
I haven’t seen the documentary, but I’ve been to Tuscaloosa and I’ve partied at their frat houses. It’s been a spell, and I’m sure the place has evolved. But there is money, power and influence behind the scenes at Alabama that has emotional and political motivations for embracing and preserving their traditions. I’m sure a lot of kids can and do find their way through 4 years there. But I know it is beyond fair and accurate to say, it ain’t for everybody.
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It’s behind a pay wall, but I found it elsewhere. May as well post the list:
- Brown: 43
- U-Conn.: 43
- Dartmouth College: 42
- Wesleyan University: 37
- University of Virginia: 35
- Harvard: 33
- University of North Carolina at Charlotte: 32
- Rutgers-New Brunswick: 32
- University of Vermont: 27
- Stanford: 26
I guess a couple of points. First, this list is from 2016, and you often point out the shortcomings of using dated data, a point with which I agree. I would expect that this list changes every year; but if any school appears on it each year, or frequently, then that school should be called to the carpet. I also think most of these schools have fraternities, or did in 2016.
Also, for whatever it’s worth, I agree 100% that there are some demographics of women who are more and less likely to report rape. That could affect which school is on the list.
That was the list of overall number, which while interesting, does not seem as important as rate per capita, to take into account the relative size of the student body.
If you. can find more recent statistics, please post. I expect nothing from the pandemic on has been researched since so many schools were closed part of that time.
That’s ok. But my points still stand. It’s a list from 2016, and any school that finds itself on the list year after year ought to do something. If it’s a one-off, then it was a bad year. And, of course, there are places at which women are more and less likely to report than others.
Ask any underwriter of risk: fraternities are a statistical nightmare. I think that’s the real reason why presidents of northeastern schools have wanted to get rid of them for eons.
I don’t have more recent statistics, but I’m also not looking for them. I didn’t bring this up in the thread, and I’m certainly not somebody who thinks that campus rape is a bellwether problem at Alabama. I’m sure some years it’s a problem and other years it’s not. Big-time athletics and fraternities certainly tend to increase the risk. But the risk exists without them.
Below is a link to a description of a former UA student who was a member of a sorority and was overall happy with her experience. The description touches on the 2013 controversy, and other issues that have come up in this thread. I don’t know if the following still takes place, but it perhaps sheds light on how greek life might influence attitudes toward sexually aggressive behavior.
. . . once you get a bid and become a pledge, you start going to swaps — parties where a sorority pairs up with a fraternity. Usually, there are themes, and sometimes those themes are highly problematic. At one swap, the theme was “CMT versus BET,” where you either came dressed as a cowboy or a rapper.
During these parties, there was a practice called “bumping.” All the pledges from the frat and the sorority would line up facing away from each other. One by one, you’d back up until you bumped into each other. Then, you’d both turn around and the guy would do something that was usually sexual. He’d be cheered on by his frat brothers, like, “Motorboat her!” Then, he’d do it. There was one house that was notorious for swinging from the rafters of the basement and wrapping their legs around girls’ necks. Though pledges could technically opt out of bumping, no one wanted to be “that girl.” It was like sanctioned, organized harassment.
I have a number of friends who served as staffers on Capitol Hill and I interviewed there once for a job in a House member’s office. The incidents of public physical harassment there were far worse than this account. I am, honestly, not willing to describe what I was subjected to there. I won’t post it here, let alone tell a reporter about it. I have more self respect than that.
Yet, should college graduates never pursue careers on Capitol Hill?
I was a member at another college for three years and saw nothing even remotely like this. Hazing happens in many settings. I actually support legislation for banning hazing at the federal level and have voiced my opinion to my representatives.
Hazing is not synonymous with or exclusive to greek life.
If you want to start another thread discussing the issue of hazing on college campuses, I will agree with you that it should be banned. Senator Amy Klobuchar is cosponsoring this legislation.
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“Studies have found fraternity men are three times more likely to rape women than nonaffiliated classmates. Most gang rapes reported on campus are tied to fraternities. Women in sororities are 74% more likely to be raped than other college women.”
There are some demographics of women, perhaps, and there are certainly schools who make reporting easier or harder.
I am not pointing my finger at certain schools and not others because I don’t know the details for each school. But students at schools that provide more education about consent, more clearly define assault, publicize how to report issues, have more victim-friendly investigation processes, and are perceived to have better outcomes of the process are more likely to report an assault.
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Yes, this is a source of unclear or poorly remembered consent-or-lack-thereof cases that university administrative procedures often end up dealing with (poorly).
However, it is also likely that sexual predators find that large parties with free flowing alcohol without significant supervision are ideal places to do their crimes without being noticed or remembered.
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https://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/media/Journal/082-Presley.pdf notes the following:
- Regarding association between drinking and type of student residence: “students with the highest levels of consumption and heavy episodic drinking episodes were those who lived in a fraternity or sorority house (Presley et al., 1993b).”
- Regarding association between drinking and college characteristics: “Presence of a Greek system. A number of single institution studies have found that members of Greek organizations are more likely to drink compared with other students …” However, it also notes that “although the presence of a Greek
system contributes to the percentage of heavy episodic drinkers on campus, there are also a number of institutions that have no Greek system and yet also have a high percentage of heavy episodic drinkers.” - But it also notes that colleges in the South are much more likely to be low HED (heavy episodic drinking) schools than those in other parts of the country, while colleges in the Northeast are the most likely to be high HED schools.
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And there are the regional cultures and politics that create a broader context within which such women live that also can play a role. And the relative status and influence of a given offender may have in the broader campus community matter too. Of course, things are better than they once were (I think), but back in the day at my alma mater, football players were responsible for all kinds of problems on campus. Back then, the AD had a relationship with the King County prosecutor, and things were often swept under the rug. It was before the internet, so the word had to get out in the paper or make the local news. Families of women often did not want the details of what happened to their daughters written about in the paper which made it easier for the perpetrators, or the power behind the perpetrators, to “settle things quietly.” This used to go on regularly. Trust me.
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Things that go without saying.
But I actually don’t know that it’s naive to assume that campuses with a large Greek presence don’t tend to generate statistically more alcohol use (will w/hold any view on drug use). I don’t have proof, but then again a lot of people have expressed views in this thread w/o proof, so there’s that.
I don’t profess to have definitive research in hand when I don’t. So, admittedly from only a dead reckoning standpoint (which incidentally is informed a not insignificant experience sample), more Greek = more drinking. But that doesn’t mean that no Greek = no drinking. The latter would be an absurd thing to say, and I’ve never heard anyone say it.
As to north and south, I’ve never had an opinion or point of view that drinking in the south is heavier than in the north. I assume it’s roughly equal, but also would not be surprised if it’s heavier in the north. In our state, WSU is a campus that experiences a fair amount of serious incidents involving excess drinking in the Greek system. And we all remember what happened at Penn State just a few years back. A Dartmouth fraternity (that purportedly still operates below the radar against college policy) is the inspiration for Animal House.
But someone will have to show me the research that suggests Greek system presence has little to no effect on campus drinking … particularly campus binge drinking … before I’ll believe it.
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Within campuses that have greek life, there are really two types:
On campus greek life and off campus greek life.
Some colleges and universities have reacted to the bad press around drinking in fraternities by banning all fraternities, resulting in the groups moving off campus. This policy was lampooned in a very dated Will Ferrell movie, Old School. Other schools took a more moderate approach by only banning fraternities that broke certain rules (usually around violent hazing incidents or other violent crimes, not against 20-year-olds drinking a beer) and maintaining authorized fraternities on campus, in part, to prevent students from drunk driving.
Neither policy has had perfect results, but the facts are that college student groups that are informal and unaffiliated with the college can cause huge problems for schools. There have also been incidents of harassment and hazing with other, non-Greek affinity groups on college cases. There is one being heard in federal court in Maryland currently. There’s another one in Ohio that happened a few years ago. It’s not rare or a reason to single out or rule out a school or group of schools.
My problem with ‘documentaries’ like this one is that they present a one-sided view that coddles viewers into an either-or mentality that does not reflect reality, leading to unacknowledged risk. They promote bias.
I went to a heavily greek college myself, and my religious private high school had as much drug and alcohol use as my college did. There aren’t studies on this because the high schools would never participate. They also don’t track it because it occurs mostly when school is not open or outside of the view of the school staff.
I prefer not to be naive. I want my students to have some small idea of what they are getting into and what to avoid. I’ve had DS24 tour and visit schools with and without greek life, and they are virtually indistinguishable in terms of what the students actually do with their free time.
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Where did you get to view this documentary in its entirety? You seem to have a fully formed opinion including criticisms of it.
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