Transfer out of a BS/MD program?

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
1

<p>I am currently in an 8 year BS/MD program (undergrad at a small state college in NJ, med school at Drexel University in Philly). I am trying to decide whether it is worth it to stay in this program. If I decide to leave, I am hoping to attend the University of Pittsburgh next fall.</p>

<p>Here is my current pro/con list for both:</p>

<p>BS/MD
- Much cheaper (at least 10-15k cheaper per year)
- Med school guarantee
- Small school/program – very easy to find a professor to do research with
- Integrated preceptorship program – where BS/MD students go to a hospital to observe and learn from physicians (for credit), essentially become a small part in the medical team
- Able to continue extracurriculars that I began in high school (EMS, hospital volunteering, etc)
- Possibly get involved in the creation/leadership of an on-campus EMS organization
- Kaplan MCAT review class provided for free to students</p>

<p>University of Pittsburgh
- The "real" college experience (I currently live at home)
- Bigger school – more choices of courses/majors if I change my mind
- Ability to change majors – in my current program, I pretty much have my schedule set until graduation; I can't pick what classes I want to take
- Many opportunities for volunteering/shadowing/working at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC), which is a nationally ranking medical center
- Honors college opportunities – taking specialized courses, having specialized advisors, etc
- Study abroad opportunities
- More extracurricular opportunities – bigger school = more clubs
- Can apply to any medical school, but have to go through application process
- Ineligible for university scholarships
- Unlikely to receive university housing</p>

<p>I am pretty much certain that my end goal in life is to become a physician, however I am not afraid of not getting into med school if I transfer out of the program and apply the traditional way (because I have a desire to join the military and serve). </p>

<p>My program requires at least a 31P on MCAT, 3.5 overall GPA, and 3.5 science GPA without being able to withdraw from any class. Personally, I believe that the cheap undergrad is offset by the cost of Drexel.</p>

<p>I apologize for such a long post, so I thank anyone who takes the time to read it. I appreciate any suggestion/comments.</p>

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<p>What year are you in?</p>

<p>It is always a risk giving up a program but if you just started it, you can make up. If you are in your second year, it may be easy enough to make up (you have to have the focus of competing for a medical seat in future but if you spent an year or more assuming you already have a seat, you have lost that edge).</p>

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<p>Did you visit Pittsburg? If not, visit it, then decide.</p>

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<p>I am a freshman.</p>

<p>I have visited Pittsburgh. As a high school senior, I was stuck between the two. In the end, I chose the BS/MD for the security, but now I am reconsidering it.</p>

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<p>hmmm why don’t you stay in the program for undergrad, and then apply out to other med schools? That way, you’ll have 1 guarantee, but have a choice in what med school you’ll attend.</p>

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<p>i thought drexel is not guarenteed. is it a guarenteed program? if so, how is it in first year?</p>

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<p>if you want to leave, apply out for medical school (not undergrad…). the reasons to attend u pitt for undergrad seem mediocre, at best.</p>

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<p>Honestly, stepping up from your current undergrad (is it Keane University?) to pitt is not much of a difference in quality, at least in my opinion, to give up a seat to medical school. If you start the ems organization, get great gpa and MCATs, you’d have a better application for applying out if you feel you can do better that way. But if you want a more collegey experience, you’ll have to think for yourself how much of a priority that is.</p>

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<p>It really depends on how big the college experience is for you. For each person it means a different thing.</p>

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<p>That guaranteed seat is worth its weight in gold. You want to go from 30 kids in science class to 200 with the only personal touch being the lab groups run by the TA’s who may be the only people to know you on a first name basis. </p>

<p>At your current school you are you are liable to get more mentoring if you need it. The military will pay for your medical school if you go that route so that negates med school cost factor. Stay where you are and build up your gpa. If at the appropriate time you want to take the MCAT (which may force you out of your med school spot so check your agreement) take the test.</p>

<p>Finally, do you want to spend the next 3 summers following doctors around to build up your resume when you don’t need to do that now. You could go to Europe on the Euro pass with the hostels if you have the travel bug or go the second summer after working the first summer to save for your trip. And forget that Prestige nonsense.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind, you’re going to get biased replies on this forum where most posters can’t see anything beyond the med school guarantee.</p>

<p>I think your first post was very correct to reason out the pros and cons of transferring. I don’t think there’s a wrong answer. Drexel is a low-tier med school and the requirements for this BS/MD program is relatively high. If you can get a 3.5/31, you can probably get into better med schools like Drexel.</p>

<p>Despite what people will say on this forum (because most BS/MD programs are at low-tier med schools), the prestige of your medical school matters when applying for residency. If you look at the NRMP match data, they specifically list separate statistics for graduates of “NIH Top 40 medical schools.” If you look at a recent survey of program directors, graduating from a top 40 or so medical school was ranked as important as being AOA or doing research (citation: Green M, Jones P, Thomas JX Jr. Selection criteria for residency: results of a national program directors survey. Acad Med. 2009 Mar;84(3):362-7.)</p>

<p>Someone is always going to come here and brag about how they managed to match into Harvard derm from a no-name med school. Sure, ask them for their stats. I guarantee it’s higher than the stats required of students from name-brand med schools. If you think you’ll be the perfect residency applicant with 260+ USLME scores and 4 publications, it won’t matter what med school you go to. But, if you think there will be a few chinks in your armor, then it’s better to be a less-than-perfect applicant from a top med school than a less-than-perfect applicant from a no name med school.</p>

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<p>I posted this on another discussion but it applies here.</p>

<p>A friend of mine is an MD who teaches at an ivy med school. She advised they are getting 15 “uber applicants” for each slot. By uber she advised people who have 4.0 gpa, nearly perfect mcats and either are concert pianists, had leukemia at age 8 or , escaped a despotic country crossing a river as a child and learning english as a second language. </p>

<p>She pounded into my D take the american med school slot since neuroscience degrees even from top schools are a dime a dozen undergrad. The MD instructor herself went to a lower tier medical school years after college graduation and has upper ivy MD’s grads working for her at their related hospital along with MD’s from schools accross the spectrum. She advised nobody cares where you went to med school at that point in your life. Her own child is now going to a combined program since she said going to school in the ivies is not a guarantee into medical school anymore. </p>

<p>She explained that kids from the upper ivies wind up going to overseas medical schools now. So one does not guarantee the other, and they can be divergent goals especially with some ivies restricting the number of A’s in each class due to grad inflation in the past. Further, many schools being are being very restrictive with writing letters from their premed committees for recommendations. This is how they keep their 40-50% get into medical school statistics. </p>

<p>One top 5 LAC counselor told me personally that they count grads who get into med school up to 10yrs after graduation in their percentages since so many kids need to get Masters Degrees or Peace Corps type experience to fill out their brag sheets. Foreign med schools have to run according to Ameircan standards otherwise you will never get a lic. in NJ. NY allows them if they take a 2 yr mini med school in NYC upon their return. NJ will not-period.</p>

<p>My D will have an entire senior year to take whatever she wants since she received 30 credits from so many AP courses in high school and from summer schools at 2 different ivies. Also the med school she picked does research into neuroscience so that will help her fellowship/residency goals. </p>

<p>My D does not experience that “every man for himself syndrome” where class mates do not help you if your lab experiments do not yield the right amount of product or answer. Everybody is not fighting for class placement and for the few letters of recommendations that each Prof will give out. Her group of 20 help each other all year long and even the upper classmen help the lower ones since all 80 of all 4 years socialize together. Michael Crichton the auther wrote in one of his books about this experience at Harvard UG and it is still true today. </p>

<p>People do not realize that with 80k highly qualified bio and chem grads coming out fighting for only 16k american med school slots. I was one who didn’t get in due to having to work for tuition money while taking organic chemistry so my D learned from my mistakes.</p>

<p>Also the difference between the top med schools and the lower ones is much smaller than the spread of the top colleges to a state college. You make your bones on your rank in med school, where you do your residency and fellowship and that is based on performance ,“people” skills, interviews, research etc. </p>

<p>Also with the guarantee you save 3 whole summers for your self instead of volunteering in hospitals , shadowing doctors etc. which is pro bono work and the commute to their offices costs you even more money out of pocket.</p>

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<p>Yet, despite getting 15 uber applicants with 4.0 GPA for every slot, the average stats for top med schools are only 3.8/35, for mid-tier med schools are only 3.7/32, and for low tier med schools 3.6/29-30. Hyperbole? </p>

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<p>Restricting the number of A’s in every class is called a curve and 90% of colleges use it. Even so, the average GPA at top colleges is in the 3.2-3.6 range, far higher than in state schools. Out of the top 20 colleges out there, only 1 (Johns Hopkins) refuse to write committee letters for everyone. That’s it. EVERY SINGLE OTHER TOP 20 COLLEGE THAT HAS A PREMED COMMITTEE DOES NOT SCREEN. Clear enough?</p>

<p>Top schools get their students into med school because they have great academic environments, challenging curricula, ample research opportunities, accomplished letter writers, great premed advising, and small classes.</p>

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<p>I went to an Ivy League college and have never experienced any cut throatness. No professor has ever had a limit to the number of recommendation letters he/she will write each year. One of my professors wrote 70+ one year and was glad to write mine. </p>

<p>Michael Crichton was a writer of fiction, which is pretty much what your post is.</p>

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<p>Maybe you weren’t meant to be a doctor. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor should be a doctor. Medical school is 10x harder than college. If you aren’t cut out to be a doctor, then it’s much better to find out early in college so you can switch careers than to go through an easy college and fail in med school. </p>

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<p>This is probably the only realistic thing you’ve said but it’s also precisely why it makes sense to go to a top med school. If you are going to do the same things and learn the same stuff, why not get the bonus of going to a top med school? It’s not like it’s easier at a crappy med school. If I have to go through the meat grinder either way, I’d much rather come out with a degree from a top med school. And yes it matters when applying for residency.</p>

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<p>Yea, all that volunteering in hospitals and shadowing doctors…who needs clinical experience anyway? And gosh, pro bono work. If only all hospitals would only take insured patients and do no pro bono work. I mean I’ve never had to work with uninsured patients or patients who couldn’t pay as a med student ~</p>

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<p>Money tends to be a nice motivator to not go to a so-called top medical school.</p>

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<p>True, unfortunately not valid as a defense of BS/MD programs as most of them are ridiculously expensive.</p>

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<p>Raycmr addressed several advantages of BS/MD programs. I will show to my son who is interested in combined programs.</p>

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<p>"True, unfortunately not valid as a defense of BS/MD programs as most of them are ridiculously expensive. "</p>

<p>-There is no difference between bs/md with certain UG/Med. School combo and going Regular Route to the same UG/Med. School combo. The codst depends primarily on Merit awards that UG provides (and this is detemined completely outside of bs/md program). Some very top and very lucky Med. School students get Merit awards at Med. School, which is also determined outside of bs/md. There are also some free Med. Schools, very few and very hard to get into and top stats are not always criteria for getting in.</p>

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<p>Actually it is, if you choose the right programs to apply to.</p>

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<p>“Right program” is always expensive? Oh, well, everybody’s criteria is different. D. has chosen the one that fitted her the most and it happened to be the cheapest out of the ones she was accepted. “Most expensive” was not one of her criteria. None of the programs were taking care of Merit awards, all of them came from UG schools and later from Med. School (only one Med. School gave her any Merits).</p>

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<p>Two of the top 3 ivies don’t restrict the number of A’s. I questioned that point at length at both schools. The other one claims it is trying to make up for years of grade inflation and it is hurting kid’s chances getting into Med school. One could not even get into UMD in New Jersey. These are kids who were Val’s in High School and are proven hard workers so it stinks for these kids to be restricted on the number of A’s given . Whats the point of going to the ivies if its going to hurt you. </p>

<p>At one of the two summer ivies my D went to as a High School student she was in regular premed classes, and I had rush out and get her a required reading book over night from Amazon since it was taken out by a regular undergraduate who did not even have that assignment in her class so don’t say things are suddenly hugs and kisses. Just like in private industry people like to make themselves look better by pulling others down. I was told by a school official it is not uncommon. My D got the last laugh since she was number one in two of her three classes when she was just 16 years old. She got into an ivy but choose the combined due to the aforementioned advantages and saved also saved 20k in tuition per year which she will spend on Med School instead. Her goal is not to be buried in debt.</p>